Trade School vs. College: How to Start a High-Paying Skilled Trades Career with Ryan Eisenhauer
Skilled trades career paths offer high paying jobs without a degree. Ryan Eisenhauer joins Andrew Brown to break down trade school vs college, apprenticeships, and mentorship.
Host Andrew Brown sits down with Ryan Eisenhauer, aka Ike from Construction Mentor, to talk about skilled trades career paths, the reality of apprenticeship opportunities in construction, and how to succeed with or without a college degree. They explore how tradespeople build wealth, why soft skills in the trades matter just as much as craftsmanship, and the truth behind high paying trade jobs without a degree.
From growing up in a union pipefitter household to managing national projects as a director at a top 10 general contractor, Ryan shares what it's really like to climb the ladder in the construction industry. He breaks down why mentorship in the trades is broken, how to earn it anyway, and why apprenticeship opportunities in construction are more about effort and mindset than resumes.
Whether you’re aiming for high paying trade jobs without a degree or just exploring alternatives to college, this episode delivers unfiltered guidance from someone who's walked every rung of the skilled trades ladder.
IN THIS EPISODE:
● (00:03) – The scars of the industry: What newcomers need to unlearn
● (07:55) – Plumbers save more lives than doctors? Yes, and here's why
● (17:12) – Trade School vs College: The cost, return, and career growth
● (28:44) – Soft Skills in the Trades: What makes or breaks an apprentice
● (41:33) – Breaking in: Apprenticeship Opportunities in Construction
● (51:00) – High Paying Trade Jobs Without a Degree: Real-world earning power
Key Takeaways:
● Skilled trades career paths offer financial freedom, ownership opportunities, and real respect, if you’re willing to show up and stay hungry.
● Trade school vs college is a decision with long-term consequences. For many, trades offer a better ROI and less debt.
● Soft skills in the trades like punctuality, presentation, and curiosity are essential for earning mentorship and promotions.
● Apprenticeship opportunities in construction are competitive. Success depends on persistence, humility, and standing out with your effort.
About the Guest:
Ryan Eisenhauer, also known as Ike from Construction Mentor, is a seasoned construction executive and trades advocate. After starting his career digging holes and working on job sites, he rose to become a director at a top 10 general contractor. Through Construction Mentor, he offers real talk, real tactics, and real mentorship to people breaking into the skilled trades industry. Whether you’re eyeing a career in carpentry, HVAC, plumbing, electrical, or construction management, Ryan’s mission is to change the narrative and build up the next generation of tradespeople.
Keywords:
Skilled Trades Career Paths, Trade School vs College, Apprenticeship Opportunities in Construction, Soft Skills in the Trades, High Paying Trade Jobs Without a Degree
Skilled Trades, Trades Industry, Andrew Brown, Ryan Eisenhauer, Construction Mentor, Toolfetch, Carpentry, HVAC, Electricians, Plumbers, Millwrights, Construction, Craftsmanship, Problem-solving, Creativity, Tradespeople, Advocacy, Trades Careers, Industry Experts, Contractors, Education, Skilled Trades Advisory Council
RESOURCES:
LinkedIn Profile: https://www.linkedin.com/in/ryan-eisenhauer-032625289/
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/the_construction_mentor/?hl=en
Website: https://constructionmentor.org/
SUPPORT THE SHOW:
If you’re getting value from these episodes and want to help keep the mics on, consider tipping the show here → https://andrewbrowntrades.kit.com/products/toolbox
Every dollar helps us keep bringing unfiltered insights from the trades, straight to your ears.
Transcript
This industry suffers from the scars of the industry.
Speaker:You know, when you come into this industry, you'll see a lot of
Speaker:grumpy older people. Those are people that have been burned, they have
Speaker:scars, they act a certain way, and they have a certain perception on what's right
Speaker:and wrong. And it's really easy to pick up bad habits and bad
Speaker:perspectives from other people, especially when you know nothing because somebody that. It's like your
Speaker:parents when you're growing up, you assume that they're God, right? Like they. They know
Speaker:everything. And it's the same thing when you come into this industry.
Speaker:Hi, I'm Andrew Brown. You're listening to the Lost Art of the Skilled Trades
Speaker:podcast, a show that shines the spotlight on
Speaker:careers in the skilled trades that are high paying, honorable,
Speaker:rewarding, and fulfilling. The trades are the backbone of the
Speaker:economy that keep us running. And without them, our world
Speaker:would cease to exist.
Speaker:Today we have a special guest, Ryan Eisenhauer, AKA
Speaker:Ike of Construction Mentor. Welcome, Ryan, to the show.
Speaker:Andrew. Thanks for having me. Thanks for being on the show, man. You know,
Speaker:back when I started my business Tofetch, an
Speaker:industrial supply company, this was really after
Speaker:years ago where I found myself on ground zero, nine, 11,
Speaker:helping tradespeople find survivors. And what really hit me
Speaker:when I was down there was watching the tradespeople and how they showed
Speaker:up that day. I saw electricians, I saw iron workers, I saw
Speaker:welders, literally to some degree, saving lives.
Speaker:Those incredible professionals really don't get the
Speaker:recognition they deserve. That sparked everything
Speaker:for me, for everything I've done. Sort of after that situation,
Speaker:building a business that serves the trades, launching a foundation
Speaker:that serves the trade, speaking across the country, and eventually starting this
Speaker:podcast to change the narrative around these careers. And when
Speaker:I came across your page, Construction Mentor, it reminded me of why
Speaker:I do all this. And you're out there giving young professionals advice
Speaker:about getting into the construction trade. Really? Why
Speaker:do you think we've lost that respect
Speaker:for the trades? And how do we get it back? You know, you touched on
Speaker:two things right there that are very important. Tradespeople are a different
Speaker:breed, right? It's one of the things that drew me to the industry.
Speaker:It's funny because you mentioned saving lives. And if there's one
Speaker:trade that saves more lives than any other profession, including
Speaker:doctors, it's actually plumbers, right? And
Speaker:people don't realize that, but you wouldn't have a hospital, you wouldn't have pharmaceutical
Speaker:manufacturing, you wouldn't have food manufacturing, you wouldn't have any of it without a plumber
Speaker:clean water is the difference between a third world country and a first world country.
Speaker:That's why thousands of kids in third world countries in Africa actually
Speaker:die every day. It's because of contaminated water. That should get a little
Speaker:more respect than it does. And when you mentioned the thing
Speaker:about the trades, responding to 9 11, I was just at
Speaker:lunch the other day. My father's retired. He was a pipe fitter in Boston for
Speaker:40 years. And we got lunch with somebody that he worked with for 30
Speaker:years. And my dad went up and got to the bat, went to the bathroom.
Speaker:He's like, man, you know, what I loved about your dad was that I
Speaker:loved going to work just to hang out with him every day. And to this
Speaker:day, I don't know anybody else that I could call in the middle of the
Speaker:night that would be there. There's just a different
Speaker:camaraderie and a different respect amongst the tradespeople. And if you grew
Speaker:up in the industry like I did, I think it's not only is the opportunity
Speaker:a parent, but that camaraderie and that teamwork, whatever
Speaker:you want to call it, think we all want people there that we feel like
Speaker:will be there for us in our moment of need. And the trades are
Speaker:have no shortage of that. It's definitely what made me fall in love with the
Speaker:industry and where I think we kind of lost respect for
Speaker:them was this desire or notion to do
Speaker:less. I think over time, for whatever reason, we've prioritized
Speaker:indulgence with a maximum input to get a maximum output. Right?
Speaker:Like, we want to do the least amount of work to get the maximum amount
Speaker:of indulgence out of it. I don't know where that started or where the
Speaker:message started, but the notion that working
Speaker:in a trade is like a life sentence to, like, backbreaking work and
Speaker:that it's like less than is so far from the truth
Speaker:that we need to get back to it. And I think a lot of people
Speaker:have done a good job. Like, obviously Mike Rowe does a really good job at
Speaker:telling people, you know, what the opportunity and the trades are. Where I think he's
Speaker:missing the mark is, number one, he's old enough to be a lot of people's
Speaker:grandfather that are very young. And number two, it comes across as like you're patting
Speaker:somebody on the head and saying, oh, you're too stupid for college or to work
Speaker:with your brain and make a lot of money, like, go to the trades. He's
Speaker:obviously done a great job. But working in a trade, number one,
Speaker:allows you to make so much money faster than anybody else.
Speaker:But it doesn't just stop there. There is career growth in the trades as well.
Speaker:Everybody that I talk to, I have thousands of people in my DMs and comments
Speaker:telling me about how it affects their body and how they're going to break their
Speaker:back for 40 years and they're not going to have a body left and anything
Speaker:like that. And that basically, you know, the man is
Speaker:kind of squeezing them for all their worth and all their blood, sweat and tears.
Speaker:And it couldn't be further from the truth because when you're in the
Speaker:trades you can become a project manager, you can become an executive, you can run
Speaker:your own company. And even if you don't want to run a company of a
Speaker:hundred people making a hundred million dollars, you can make a couple hundred thousand dollars
Speaker:running a company of your own, of three people. And nobody's connecting those dots
Speaker:for people. We've lost this message of trying to tell people that it's noble to
Speaker:work in the trades instead of concentrating on the career growth and the multitude
Speaker:of opportunities in any direction that you want to go. Right. There's no dead end
Speaker:path in the trades. And I think that's the message that we still haven't gotten
Speaker:to. There are a lot of misconceptions out there about the trades. But I want
Speaker:to go back to what you said about plumbers saves more lives than doctors. And
Speaker:it's, it's true. And I've said this on a handful of posts on social
Speaker:media and I remember the, there's this
Speaker:picture of a plumber and he's on like a pedestal and there's like a
Speaker:whole like audience like looking up at this plumber. And I feel like
Speaker:anyone in trades, but I'm just thinking about plumbers that they don't get
Speaker:the recognition they deserve. And people look at me sideways and they say,
Speaker:Dr. Plumber, what are you even talking about? Those people save lives. But
Speaker:you don't realize that in third world countries, like you said
Speaker:about water and filtration and everything, I go to my tap and I
Speaker:could drink the water. But you can't do that in a third world country. And
Speaker:those are the people behind the scenes, the plumbers and the people
Speaker:who are doing the hard work to keep our water supply clean. And
Speaker:I completely agree to that. I still don't feel that they are compensated
Speaker:to where they should be. And one of these things that come up on social
Speaker:media as you see, is that some of these kids that are
Speaker:saying, hey, you Know what? I'm looking maybe at a trade, but
Speaker:I'm also looking at going into working for McDonald's or
Speaker:Chipotle. And when I become an apprentice, I only make $18
Speaker:or $20 an hour, but I can make $20 an hour in
Speaker:McDonald's. I'm like, okay, maybe at first, but you start to
Speaker:scale up as an apprentice over your four years.
Speaker:And it's funny, there's this back and forth of these old adages, these
Speaker:misconceptions that, yes, you're not going to make a lot of money,
Speaker:you're going to break your back, and you're going to be yelled at all day.
Speaker:Why would I even want that? And I said to them, well, are you going
Speaker:to work your way up in McDonald's in Chipotle? Probably not, because you're going to
Speaker:surpass that if you go into the trades. So there's a lot of misconceptions
Speaker:that are going on there. And it's interesting you brought up Mike Rowe because we
Speaker:had a chance. My foundation, the Skilled Trades Advisory Council.
Speaker:One of the individuals that I work with, Rob Almond,
Speaker:and he owns a facilities management company called Nest. We got to
Speaker:interview Mike Rowe for like an hour in front of 3,000
Speaker:people. Got to meet him. Really funny guy. He's
Speaker:awesome. I just listened to him and Joe Rogan a month ago. He's awesome. He
Speaker:is awesome. He was there and he, like, he sang because he sang in like,
Speaker:I guess, opera or whatever. He did. Certainly a good guy. Yeah.
Speaker:He's out there and everybody looks at him as like, the guy on the
Speaker:pedestal. And he is, and I get it, he's getting older. But his message
Speaker:and what he did by showcasing that in his.
Speaker:On his show Dirty Jobs, really kind of put the mark
Speaker:out there that you can do well in a blue collar skill trade. So the
Speaker:opportunities, I think, are endless. Yeah. And I think, you know, with Mike
Speaker:when I said that, there's like holes in the messaging. He's a great voice, a
Speaker:needed voice. You and I try to be voices, but we're not Mike Rowe. Right.
Speaker:We're on a much smaller scale. He's really the only voice that big and loud.
Speaker:We need more at that level, different perspectives. You know, people that have
Speaker:been in a job trailer, people that know what it's like to work in a
Speaker:deadline or in an unsafe situation, or people that have seen some stuff, and
Speaker:people that have truly tried to climb the ladder or learn a trade and then
Speaker:climb the ladder in the industry. And what's funny about what you said comparing
Speaker:The Chipotle to McDonald's is like, yeah, okay, where are you going to
Speaker:take that skill? Can you walk across the street and tell somebody like, yeah, man,
Speaker:I know how to roll a burrito. I know how to take a scuba guac
Speaker:and charge you $2 extra? No, but if you know how to be an
Speaker:electrician, how to do carpentry, even how to paint, if you look, there's more
Speaker:painters than any other type of contractor in the country. And there's a reason why,
Speaker:right? Because it's a little easier to learn that it's on the lower spectrum of
Speaker:the skilled trades. When you talk about getting an education, college
Speaker:is what comes to people's mind. You're paying to go to college. You're also paying
Speaker:with your opportunity costs because you're not making any money while you're there. Maybe you're
Speaker:working at a restaurant or something on the side, but there is an opportunity cost
Speaker:to not working towards getting experience towards your career.
Speaker:That is not how it works in the trades. You get paid on day one
Speaker:in the union, that's a great opportunity because those minimum wages are public.
Speaker:You know what they are. And you have a guaranteed raise at every single point,
Speaker:you know, every year for four years or five years. And then you get out
Speaker:and you make a great wage. When you talk about even a non union job,
Speaker:I have people on my podcast all the time. They're starting people at 25,
Speaker:$30 an hour. They'll pay them more as soon as they understand enough
Speaker:to go be productive on their own and run their own job and do their
Speaker:own installs and things like that. So the notion that
Speaker:the pay is low, the perspective is wrong, right?
Speaker:You're analyzing the situation wrong. You're getting paid to get an education.
Speaker:And at the end of that education, I don't know a single person in the
Speaker:skilled trades that is average, that makes less
Speaker:than a hundred thousand dollars a year in any market. The average American only
Speaker:makes $60,000 a year. The average American of any age,
Speaker:people 45, 50 years old, people that have been doing something for 20
Speaker:years, at the end of that education that you just got paid for, you're going
Speaker:to be making almost double what they made. Tell me what the better investment is.
Speaker:And that's just being a journeyman or journeywoman in a trade,
Speaker:never mind again, climbing the ladder, becoming an executive, a project
Speaker:manager, owning your own business and getting charged for your time. And
Speaker:then what a lot of people find when they get on the trades, that nobody
Speaker:talks About. So not only do we not talk about the career growth into entrepreneurship
Speaker:or executive seats, but a lot of people do that and what do they find
Speaker:out? I don't want to do that. I want to be back in the trade
Speaker:because I like the peace of mind of working with my hands, having marching
Speaker:orders, having a drawing to go build to, building to it, doing my job well,
Speaker:getting paid very well to do it and then I get to hang my hat
Speaker:when I go home and I get to live my life and leave the job
Speaker:on the job site. I went to college for four years and came out more
Speaker:confused out of school than when I was in school and jumped about three or
Speaker:four different majors, right? And then I went into it and then I went
Speaker:into industrial tools and equipment because of 9, 11, like
Speaker:my journey didn't in higher education didn't do me any good
Speaker:at the end of the day. And no one took me by the hand, no
Speaker:one told me anything. A lot of kids are just coming or going through college
Speaker:and just being told like get a four year college degree. And I'm just, I
Speaker:just think it's, it's sort of, it's like a misconception. Like if you have that
Speaker:technical ability, if you have that mechanical ability and especially
Speaker:you're in school sometimes you're not led down that path of like
Speaker:hey, you can be a plumber, you can be an electrician.
Speaker:Those conversations I don't think are happening when you're sitting down with a
Speaker:guidance counselor and that guidance counselor, it's one guidance counselor to the
Speaker:entire grade. They don't really know that individual and don't know what their
Speaker:background is. Like they really could want to work with their hands, but
Speaker:they're being told like go to college. Because you walk into a guidance counselor's
Speaker:office and you see college, college, college, college. And everyone asks what college?
Speaker:Your teacher's asking what college? And even parents are saying, you know,
Speaker:you should go to college and try to figure it out. But again, kids are
Speaker:coming out of school with good amount of debt. They're not getting the return
Speaker:on investment because they're not getting the job. And a lot of these jobs don't
Speaker:require the degree. On top of AI
Speaker:is disrupting so many white collar positions and jobs.
Speaker:All these generations are really starting to rethink things. Like the Wall Street
Speaker:Journal came out with a tagline and said that
Speaker:Gen Z is the next tool belt generation. Right? I
Speaker:mean it's basically coined and it's true. I believe that trade school was
Speaker:up about 16% in the last two years, which is a sign
Speaker:that kids are starting to take a look at other options. And that's one of
Speaker:my, my shticks is that, yeah, if you want to go college, that's fine. You
Speaker:want to be a doctor, you want to be a lawyer, go for it. But
Speaker:if you want a different option, you want an opportunity, like you said, you
Speaker:make money right away, you start learning a skill that's never going to
Speaker:be obsolete, it's never going to be outsourced. AI is not going to take your
Speaker:job, right? There's always work to do. You can work your way up, climb
Speaker:that ladder of success. It's how far you want to take. You want to own
Speaker:your business, great. You want to work for a construction company, work your way up,
Speaker:great. If you just want to stay and working in the field, great.
Speaker:But you got to maximize all the information, be a
Speaker:sponge, get around the right people, have a good mindset, and
Speaker:don't screw around and climb that ladder of success. Well,
Speaker:listen, I got a guy that's in my neighborhood. He, he's an electrician, fully licensed.
Speaker:He can do whatever he wants. You know what he charges to walk into somebody's
Speaker:house to do an outlet or a light fixture or anything like that? He's one
Speaker:guy he doesn't know employ anybody but himself. And he's charging like 2 to
Speaker:350 an hour for him to show up at your house to do something like
Speaker:that. Like, come on, he says he works a lot. I know what he actually
Speaker:works. He works less than 40 hours a week. And that's the other thing, right?
Speaker:This notion of working 40 hours a week to get by when you're in a
Speaker:trade, especially if you employ yourself and you're charging whatever you want
Speaker:for your time and there's such a shortage out there.
Speaker:Again, plumbers. That same stat on the Gen Z, the tool
Speaker:belt generation. They say we're going to be 500,000 plumbers short by 2027. But
Speaker:what they don't tell you is that we only have 480,000 plumbers licensed in
Speaker:America to begin with. So not every plumber is licensed. Right, but what does that
Speaker:mean in 2027? That means that we're screwed. That means that you're going to be
Speaker:able to charge more for your time. So when I see all these people in
Speaker:my DMs and comments saying, oh, yeah, you can make good money, but say goodbye
Speaker:to your family, absolutely not, that couldn't be further from the
Speaker:truth. So not only is This a good opportunity to make money. But if you
Speaker:play your cards right and you do it the right way, you might be able
Speaker:to make that a hundred grand without even working 40 hours. So that's
Speaker:the other thing that people aren't talking about. And you mentioned, you know, the
Speaker:notion of finding yourself in college, right? Like, there's way cheaper ways to
Speaker:go find yourself. You know, you want to find yourself. Why don't you go get
Speaker:a job and try to learn from some people with some life experience and leverage
Speaker:that and use that to create a perspective instead of burying yourself in debt.
Speaker:And you said something really funny about the education, like if you want to be
Speaker:a doctor or a lawyer, and usually the other one that people say is engineer,
Speaker:right? And I have a degree in engineering, and I have an MBA, I can
Speaker:confidently say that in 20 years, I have never been asked about either of those
Speaker:degrees one time. I cannot recall one time when I have ever
Speaker:went back and looked at my notes or recalled anything from those courses or those
Speaker:textbooks. I have this idea that I've been working on called the Education
Speaker:Industrial complex, where we're paying more for those degrees for a
Speaker:bunch of crap that we don't need. The point of a degree is supposed to
Speaker:teach you the skills to take off in a particular career, to show up to
Speaker:an employer and say, yes, I have an engineering degree, therefore I can do
Speaker:xyz. Well, when you look at electives, electives are required
Speaker:to hit your credit requirement to get your degree. By definition, that
Speaker:has nothing to do with your degree, right? That has nothing to do with the
Speaker:skills that your degree is telling employers that you're supposed to do. Well, those can
Speaker:cost thousands of dollars per credit, and you need like
Speaker:20 of them to graduate. So there's a bunch of money there that you're sinking
Speaker:in half the time when you go to college. And usually it's people without those
Speaker:degrees that say this, because I've never actually heard somebody with one of those degrees
Speaker:say that you're taking general education courses that you've already
Speaker:should have taken in high school. Algebra, basic English, whatever,
Speaker:but you're paying to take that again. This time you're paying to find yourself in
Speaker:a place that you've already should have been educated on in high school. And then
Speaker:you get to something like mechanical engineering. I was sitting down at a dinner with
Speaker:three guys that work with me in my company and construction. Mentor is what I
Speaker:do for fun, right? But during the day, I'm an executive at a top 10
Speaker:general contractor in the Us, we all have
Speaker:mechanical engineering degrees, right? And we were joking about the electives that we
Speaker:took. One of them took like African music history or something like that as
Speaker:an elective. And then I was like, wait a minute, let's talk about the actual
Speaker:mechanical engineering courses that we took. For you to become somebody
Speaker:that designs H Vac, plumbing and fire protection in a building, or
Speaker:structural engineer or anything, you have to take particular courses that
Speaker:are. That fit the engineering mold, but not necessarily the career in
Speaker:construction that you need to be an engineer. And when we look at it and
Speaker:we kind of like laid it all out, it was less than like 25% of
Speaker:the courses were actually relevant to what a mechanical engineer does
Speaker:in building construction. When you talk about, like, going to different colleges
Speaker:and spending a ton of money for that degree to either find yourself or to
Speaker:get a degree that you think is going to advance your career, a particular
Speaker:career, the question that nobody's asking is how much of that is actually relevant
Speaker:to your career and how much of that is going to make a difference in
Speaker:your salary? Take it out of construction. Why would you pay to go to
Speaker:Vanderbilt $90,000 a year to get a nursing degree
Speaker:when that nursing degree from a community college will get you the
Speaker:same starting salary? Nurses start out at about $60,000 a year
Speaker:nationally. Why would you spend $360,000 at
Speaker:a six and a half percent interest rate to put yourself in a million dollars
Speaker:in debt to make the same money that somebody got from a community college? When
Speaker:was the last time you went into a hospital and asked where the nurse went
Speaker:to school? Just totally doesn't happen. It's not like it used to be where
Speaker:you needed that, right? You needed that degree. When I
Speaker:graduated in 2000 from college, it was very different. And
Speaker:I was told also from my parents that I go to college. I
Speaker:just followed what they said it would almost be if I said I don't want
Speaker:to go to college. They would look at me funny just like a lot of
Speaker:other parents do. The people that went to college, just like you said,
Speaker:doesn't necessarily add up. There's a lot of people who come out of school who
Speaker:don't even go into the degree that they study for. Like, you're spending all this
Speaker:money and then you find yourself like, shit, I didn't even. I didn't want to
Speaker:do that. And it's like you look back and now you have all this
Speaker:debt because you sign on that data line for that loan and that's following
Speaker:you and you're starting over on top of it. So I do think that
Speaker:you can go to community college. I do think that you can take courses online
Speaker:and you can learn different skills. You don't necessarily
Speaker:need to go to college like you once did. Well, you know, it's funny, Andrew,
Speaker:you just said something funny about, like, parents, especially if they went to college or
Speaker:they had a dream of their child going to college. Right. My father, again,
Speaker:I said he was. He's a union pipefitter in Boston for 40 years.
Speaker:He retired at 58 years old today,
Speaker:retired 10 years later. Between his pension and his annuity, he's taking home over
Speaker:$100,000 to do nothing. He has retired
Speaker:at like $120,000 a year to do nothing. And even
Speaker:he told me I signed up to be an apprentice in the pipefitters
Speaker:union. He wanted me to go to college. And, you know, so I did it.
Speaker:Always plan on coming back to the trades and. Or that trade specifically because I
Speaker:worked in the trades while I was in college on a roofing and framing crew.
Speaker:That's how distorted the message was. Look how good of a setup my father had.
Speaker:My father always made more money than anybody else in my family as a pipe
Speaker:fitter, and he's making more than them now in retirement, and he will
Speaker:till the day he dies, even if he lives to 95 years old, he's going
Speaker:to be making a ton of money. And even he thought that, like, I should
Speaker:go to college just because. And a lot of that probably had to do with
Speaker:his own pride, right? It was to. It was to
Speaker:serve himself, to tell other people what I was doing and what
Speaker:boxes I was checking, what degrees I was getting, you know, to, like,
Speaker:almost kind of brag about it. Like it's a reflection on him. And that's the
Speaker:truth. And I think that's the truth for most parents, actually. How much did
Speaker:your father, you know, him being a pipefitter rub off on you,
Speaker:seeing him work in the union? And like you said, you
Speaker:got into the union. I think you said, how much did that rub off on
Speaker:you? And did he say to you, like, take this route,
Speaker:but also maybe have a backup, go to college, just in case?
Speaker:You know, what's funny is, like, my father always taught me one of his mantras
Speaker:was always have a trade to fall back on. So it was kind of the
Speaker:opposite where, like, he wanted me to pick up a trade but then try something
Speaker:else. Try to elevate myself with whatever kind of idea or career that I
Speaker:wanted. But when the stuff hits the Fan. If you always have a trade to
Speaker:fall back on, you can go wherever you want to go, right? And you can
Speaker:always put food on the table. I think when it came to the union, a
Speaker:lot of unions, especially since I've left the Northeast and now I worked in New
Speaker:York and then Boston and then California. But now I've lived in Florida for a
Speaker:couple years and now I'm doing projects nationally, right. For the national global
Speaker:GC that I work for. I'm a little more in tune with other markets and
Speaker:how they view unions. Not everybody loves unions. They have some certain
Speaker:connotations. But the union mentality
Speaker:that I grew up in was show up first. Fifteen
Speaker:minutes is on, early is on time. When the clock starts, the job site is
Speaker:ready, the tools are out. You know, the end of the day, that's when you
Speaker:clean up. Bringing that quality and speed and efficiency
Speaker:is all part of it. That's why we're so proud of what we do. So
Speaker:that was always like a thing for me from the beginning. And I remember even,
Speaker:like when I was in high school, one of the reasons I've got ahead of
Speaker:my career so early is because I was afforded an opportunity to work in a
Speaker:sheet metal shop in high school and I was drafting sheet metal for high
Speaker:rises in Boston. Just very early, right? I remember I showed up at like
Speaker:6:05 one time. We drove separately, and he was standing on
Speaker:the loading dock at 6:05 with guys behind him. He
Speaker:made me leave for the day and was like, you're not getting paid today. When
Speaker:you're ready to work, show up on time and have your boot tied. Because
Speaker:my boot was untied. So, like, that kind of mentality,
Speaker:taking that into whatever I do and leading by example
Speaker:and being on time and putting in the extra hours and the extra effort and
Speaker:not kind of settling for a low quality, I think was probably the biggest
Speaker:effect on me. Work hard, play hard. I would say, you know, if I had
Speaker:to sum up my father in. Five words, he instilled that in you. And
Speaker:I like that story that you, you know, you showed up at 6:05 and he
Speaker:told you to leave. These are straightforward things like don't be on your
Speaker:cell phone. Show up on time. If you need to stay, you need to stay.
Speaker:Don't complain. Something got lost. And I don't want to say it's
Speaker:generational, but something got lost. Like even when
Speaker:construction companies, when they're hiring people, some of these kids
Speaker:don't even show up for the job or they get the job and they show
Speaker:up late the first day. What happened? Where's the miss here?
Speaker:Because it didn't seem to happen with the way that your father taught you and
Speaker:you took his advice. But what's happening out there? Well, it's a two way street.
Speaker:I think the boomers and the Gen Xers love to dump on them but it's
Speaker:like hello, who raised them? You know what I mean? Like, kids are a blank
Speaker:canvas. I have a three year old and a one year old. You know, the
Speaker:world is what I, the perception that I create for them. That's going to be
Speaker:reality at least for the foreseeable future when they get a little more worldly experience
Speaker:under their belt. But what I would say is, what we're missing is that a
Speaker:lot of the, and I say guys, but guys and girls, the older ones, see
Speaker:the young people come in and they expect them to
Speaker:know these things, they expect these ideas to be inherent to them. But has
Speaker:anybody ever told them like what if nobody ever told them that, you know, what
Speaker:if nobody ever told them aside and said, hey, here's the perception that you just
Speaker:created for me. And this is one of the reasons that I started construction mentor,
Speaker:you know, constructionmentor.org and now I got a course out that goes
Speaker:through all of these things. How to create the right perception for yourself.
Speaker:Nevermind a college education. The best education is experience. And
Speaker:the best way to get experience is to leverage somebody else's experience, somebody that's been
Speaker:doing it for 40 years. How do you pull as much as you can out
Speaker:of them only being in for a year, two years, three years, four years, so
Speaker:that your four years is better than their first four years, even more.
Speaker:But nobody's going to want to mentor you if you're not giving off the right
Speaker:impression that you're worth their time. I
Speaker:to this day can't have my hands in my pockets right when I'm on a
Speaker:job site. Why? Because I was always told, you better have something in your hand.
Speaker:And if you can't find anything to be in your hand, grab a broom, right?
Speaker:If you're walking from point A to point B, something needs to be picked up,
Speaker:thrown away. Ask somebody if they need something, you know, whatever, something always needs
Speaker:to be cleaned. The most important thing happening right now is what you're doing
Speaker:not on your phone. Make sure you're groomed, right? Like make sure you're taking care
Speaker:of yourself, that you look presentable, that you don't have holes in your pants and
Speaker:that you know your Fingernails are cut and that you're clean shaven, like you give
Speaker:a crap, like somebody's proud to have you on their job site. Showing up on
Speaker:time 15 minutes early. All those types of things are things that when we
Speaker:don't see young people doing it, we should tell them and we should educate them
Speaker:on why and the perception that it creates. And then if they don't take that
Speaker:and actually put it to fruition, then we can start to make a judgment about
Speaker:them. It's going to be a question of motivation and why are they there and
Speaker:do they understand the opportunity and are they there to serve a purpose or
Speaker:are they there to check a box? Because they just, you know, they need a
Speaker:job and their parents hook them up with a plumber that they know or whatever
Speaker:that is. I was at a conference the other day and you know, I'm in
Speaker:construction management now. I don't work with my hands. It's just I
Speaker:started out digging holes and scrubbing toilets on job sites and things like that 20
Speaker:years ago. Now I'm a director at a, like I said, a large GC.
Speaker:I was at a conference with 70 people. 70 young people under the age of
Speaker:like 27 years old. And when I started. You got invited to a conference
Speaker:like that. You're there for two reasons. Number one, to learn. Number two, to meet
Speaker:the executives so that they can get FaceTime with you and
Speaker:you can build a rapport with them so that you feel comfortable with them and
Speaker:get on their radar. Most importantly, Breakfast is on 7 at the
Speaker:schedule, right? Of the 70, maybe 10 showed up
:45. Most showed up. And this is a breakfast
:at a high end hotel where, where it's free. And they,
:and they're getting, you know, the, the opportunity to meet with big executives at a
:$10 billion a year company, right? Most showed up between
:7:55
:05. And the event officially started at 8. And it's like,
:okay, you guys clearly don't get this. Nobody's ever talked to you
:about this, but like, here's why you're here and here's what you just told
:us without saying a word to us. It didn't resonate
:with everybody in the room, but it resonated with a lot. And those are the
:people that stood out. Out of the 70, I have five in my mind that
:I met and I saw things from them without even seeing how they are at
:their job, just how they interact, the level of care, where were they, what
:were they doing, how did they conduct themselves? Like Those are people that when they
:want my time, I'm going to give it to them. You know, it's interesting what
:you said about showing up early, because I say this to my kids and I
:have young kids as well. Early is on time, on time is late.
:I mean, it really is true. And these are just soft skills, you know,
:staying off your phone, showing up on time. A lot of people
:don't have that. I mean, look, that could just be from upbringing and they just
:didn't have that. They don't even know that. But like you said,
:these kids showing up late, it already set sort of the tone of like who
:these people are, right? So if they are hired one day
:or brought on, is that gonna happen in, you know, in the workplace as
:well? When you bring these people in, you never know who you're gonna get and
:if it's a culture fit. But they could be the best technician, the best
:plumber, the best welder, the best electrician. But on the other side,
:in the soft skills, they don't have that. That really kind of destroys everything
:and they become sort of toxic in the workplace. And I see a lot of
:that. You know, one of the underlying issues here that is a little
:sensitive, maybe it's a little controversial to address is, you know, I grew
:up, where I grew up, I grew up, everybody's dad was in construction, right? It
:wasn my dad. It was very much a. I knew the soft skills.
:Like, it was just very apparent to me how to conduct myself and how to
:be. How to manage up to somebody twice my age and how to work with
:them in the messaging and without saying words, what type of message
:was I conveying to them? And where I think we struggle as an industry
:is people outside of that, that don't grow up in that middle class world where
:their parents are already in the industry bringing them in and helping them
:succeed. And what am I talking about? I'm talking about a lot of people from
:inner cities that aren't white, right? Like people that don't look like me.
:And then when they come in, they don't do those things. People
:expect people to know how to do those things or how to conduct themselves.
:And then they get angry. And because they get angry, then they snap at them
:and then because they're being snapped at the new younger person or woman
:or minority, whatever it is, they feel like it's because they're different
:and it's not. And I get it, again, we got to do a better job
:at like, hey, here's why we conduct ourselves this way. There's a good
:reason for it and here's what it's going to do for you if you also
:conduct yourself this way. It's a cultural thing and it doesn't matter what
:you look like. If there's one thing that the construction industry is hungry for, it's
:competent people that care. I don't even care if you're smart. Just care
:and try to retain information and that's it. Like, that's the
:requirement. It's the basic stuff. It's the straightforward stuff that
:some people sort of take for granted and feel that those people should have had
:that a lot of kids don't. And sometimes you need to put the investment in.
:If you see something within that individual, right? If they have
:some sort of ability, you can sense that, you can feel that is that
:you kind of nurture them along and you put them with a
:mentor of some sort and put them so they're set up for success.
:They're not going to show up day one. Like you said, they might have
:an issue showing up on time and they might have an issue with their phone,
:but it could be worked on. I wouldn't fully write those people off.
:They just maybe were never taught that those type of soft
:skills. Listen, like, if you're growing up on projects and every adult you see is
:either a drug dealer or on welfare and they're not getting up and going to
:work every day and they're not getting up to go to work in your industry,
:because guess what, if you're in construction, you're not in the projects. You know what
:I mean? Like, how do you expect them to know that? Like, that's where my
:advantage came from. If I ever had any kind of privilege, it was that I
:had a PhD and how to conduct myself in construction before I was 18,
:you know what I mean? And that's what I want to do. As you know,
:the construction mentor is I want to pass those things on to people. I want
:to give you the answers to the test so that you don't have to learn
:those things the hard way and that you do get the right mentorship. Because
:good mentors are far and few between. Like, first of all, you got to want
:to be one. I think in the industry, mentorship is this
:program where you stick young person with crusty old person and you expect
:them to extract knowledge through, like osmosis. And it's just not how
:it works, you know what I mean? Like, you have to have a good candidate
:for both. So if you're young and you're trying to come into the trades, you
:want to be cognizant of that and you want to be on the lookout for
:that. I've never met one person that's 100% right all the time. So you
:don't want to just emulate somebody. But if you can get two to three and
:you can try to pull the best pieces out of, out of all of them,
:to shape your perspective and put that in your toolbox, you know that's the best
:thing to do. One of the hardest things actually to do is to ask for
:help. Some people don't want to ask for help. They want to try to figure
:it out themselves. When you ask for help, and especially someone who's in the
:trades, who's 20, 25 years in, like, why try to reinvent
:the wheel? That person is already successful, has already been there, has already done
:that. If you can extract, like you said, information out of that
:individual and a couple others, you can cut off or
:shave off X amount of years versus trying to figure it out
:yourself. And, and I say this quite often, is that I didn't have mentors
:growing up, and I was always told from my father is go figure it out
:yourself. Which was bad advice because I was trying to figure it out myself
:and it was going down the wrong direction until I got around
:mentors and people that helped me elevate and things that I want to do in
:my business and other things. It is about finding the right person.
:Also giving back. Like you're giving back, right? You're paying
:it forward, which is a great thing because you were given those tools and now
:you want to give it back. I do want to switch gears just for a
:quick second about apprenticeships. Some
:pushback online, and I get this quite often, is that
:a lot of kids want to break in to the trades. Maybe they've just come
:out of trade school, maybe they've taken some online
:courses. But the thing is, they're not getting callbacks for the
:apprenticeships. Like, I always hear the same thing. Nobody's hiring. I'm trying
:my best, and I can't find a job. I want to give up. What would
:you say to those individuals when they want to get an apprenticeship? What are some
:qualities? What are some things that they can do? Become humble,
:lower your expectations, Try to get your foot in the door anywhere.
:One of the ways that I got in and that my father used to get
:people in, because my father used to have a kind of a program where he'd
:get people in as like a shop hand or a driver. And
:they do that for a year before he would put his name behind them to
:get into the apprenticeship program, right? And that was a union apprenticeship program.
:If you can do that and even if you can't afford trade school, like if
:you have to pay for trade school, first of all, a lot of states actually
:it's free, they subsidize it and the employer,
:if you have one that sponsors you, you know they'll pay for it. But I
:would say number one, play a numbers game. Use Google first of all to find
:any and all companies. If you're ever driving by one or you see the guy's
:vans or something like that on the street, take a picture of it, take the
:number down. I had 15 years experience when I moved to Florida
:and I had to reach out to 30 companies to get five
:interviews, three job offers, right? So if you have no experience,
:just think about, just extrapolate that number for yourself, right? Like don't just try
:three times and then close the door. So that's the first
:thing. The second thing would be to lower the expectations and try to get in
:anywhere as a helper, right? Union, non union, whatever it is, call
:them and see if you can get in as a hand. And that may mean
:that you're not going to get paid a lot of money, but you got to
:think that again, you're getting paid to get an education and you're paying for an
:opportunity to make good money later. And oftentimes that can lead
:into a sponsorship where they will assist you and kind of push you
:and promote you into an apprenticeship program, whether it's union or non union.
:And then the third thing is I would keep a lot of trades in mind.
:Everyone knows what a plumber is, everyone knows what an electrician is, everyone knows what
:an H vac tech is, everyone knows what a carpenter is. That's four trades.
:There's on the average like large project, there's 30, 40 trades.
:One way to get a good mentor or one definition of getting a good mentor
:is somebody that knows what those other companies are. You could think about tile, you
:could think about bathroom accessories, which would be what partitions and ADA grab
:bars and those things. It could be wall covering, it could be a
:furniture vendor, somebody that like builds furniture all day. It could be a
:painter, a taper, there's fire sprinkler companies which nobody talks
:about. And that's actually usually the highest paying trade in every market. There are
:different kinds of carpentry companies. Some do Drop ceilings, some do
:drywall, some do cabinetry, some do just doors, 20 different
:kinds of electricians. And it just keeps growing with, you know, the evolution of technology.
:There's not just power. There's high voltage, there's fire alarm, there's low
:voltage, there's, you know, cable. All these things that you
:don't even know are there. So trying to educate yourself on those things and what
:those trades actually are and what opportunities they are. Maybe that's
:not your career from now for the next 40 years, but again, it's a foot
:in the door. And usually once you get one foot in the door,
:the possibilities are endless. From there it's just like breaking the ice. And
:behind that you may even find that you like the trade. You may find that
:there's a need in your area which allows you to start a business. You may
:find again an opportunity to climb up into management of that company or construction management,
:project manager, whatever it is. Name some other ones. Concrete
:excavation. There's just so many different trades out there than those four ones that
:everybody talks about. That's great advice because you know, if you're
:only reaching out to two or three companies and you're going to give up, like
:you said, you know, with all the years experience that you had, you had to
:reach out to multiple, multiple companies. And it's the same thing. If you have no
:experience, you need to put yourself out there, right? You know, if you want
:to be a little bit assertive, you can go down to that company,
:can knock on the door, right? You can speak to somebody, you could see one
:of their trucks, you can go over to one of the workers, you can do
:things, you can do something video wise, showing work that you're doing
:and send it to the company. Like there's a lot of different things that you
:can do to sort of stand out. But don't be the person that's like,
:I tried once, they never called me back. And that said, I give up. And
:that's not the mentality of success. That
:is, you know, dust yourself off, keep trying.
:Eventually you will get your break. Whether, like you said, if you take sort of
:like a lower end job, knowing that you can
:show the owner or show the executives that
:you're a hard worker, you'll eventually work your way up
:quicker and might get into a even better role that you
:never even anticipated. So it's all about do your thing,
:put the hard work in. But you might have to contact
:a lot of different companies in order to get to where you want to get
:to. To be clear, we're not talking about job postings. Call
:the company. I don't care if they have a posting or not. Everybody needs
:somebody. Go walk into their office, call them, look online,
:find out who their either HR director is that
:infoontractor.com email that. Email the president if
:they have their email listed. Whatever you got to do. I don't care if they
:have a job posting or not. Show them that you care and that you're interested
:and all you're looking for is an opportunity. You kind of touched on one thing.
:Like if there's one thing. Looking back at my life again, started out digging
:holes, scrubbing toilets on job sites, you know, like unloading trucks of sheet
:metal. Now I'm a director and if I told you what I was making, you
:know, I'm making like top 5% in my age bracket,
:you know, and it's even higher than that. Every opportunity that I thought
:I needed and that I wanted to and that, man, this is going to be
:the key for me getting to that executive level or getting to, you know, whatever
:level I wanted to get to in my career. Every time a door got shut
:in my face, a better opportunity that I didn't know was available
:popped up and it was the right one. The universe is funny in the way
:that it works that way. So when a door gets shut in your face, that's
:okay. This industry is so wide and vast in
:deep, the opportunities truly are endless. And when
:that door gets shut, it's just pushing you towards something that's probably better suited for
:you. It's all about a mindset change. It's all about picking yourself
:back up. Like you said, you might find an opportunity. That door was shut.
:But another opportunity might come, you know, in the future that
:is much better than you. Even the previous opportunity you were trying to go for.
:So that's really a good thing. It's just, you know, having a positive mindset and
:also getting around good people who are growth oriented
:that have mentors, just, you know, like even said having some sort of
:mastermind and talking with other individuals really kind of helps you
:throughout your journey.
:Now, the tools of the trade. This has
:been an amazing conversation, but in every episode, we
:always ask our guests a tools of the trade.
:What's one piece of advice or a mindset
:tool that every new construction worker should
:carry with them? Day one on the job site.
:This industry suffers from the scars of the
:industry. You know, when you come into this industry, you'll see
:a lot of grumpy older people, those are people that have been burned, they have
:scars, they act a certain way and they have a certain perception on what's
:right and wrong. And it's really easy to pick up bad habits and bad
:perspectives from other people. Especially when you know nothing. Because somebody that. It's like your
:parents when you're growing up, you assume that they're God, right? Like they, they know
:everything. And it's the same thing when you come into this industry.
:So that can do one of three things.
:Number one, I always use the coffee bean analogy, if you're familiar with it.
:This comes from a book called the Change Agent by Damon West. He was
:a Meth Addict, Division 1 football player, got 65 years in jail, got
:out. And when he was in jail, somebody told him the coffee bean message, which
:was, when you're in a high pressure, high temperature environment,
:it can do three things to you. You can be like a carrot and you
:get thrown in and you turn into mush. You can be like an egg, you
:get hard boiled with that tough exterior. You don't let anybody in. Or you can
:be a coffee bean, which changes that boiling water into coffee, right? So
:don't let other people's scars make you mush, make you hard. Have your
:own perspective. Always assume people around you know something you don't.
:But ask questions and try to challenge that in your mind. Do so respectfully
:ultimately to make the industry or the team around you
:act the way that you would want to be treated, you know, as your own
:leader. So that's what I would say. Try to be a coffee bean. Assume people
:know something that you don't. Try to educate yourself on what that is and be
:a free thinker. Make decisions and lead the way that you would want to be
:led. I like that it is about having your perspective.
:It's good to get other people's perspectives. But you know, there's always going to be
:naysayers out there. The people that, like you said, were burned and
:didn't have a good experience. Don't let that keep you down. Definitely keep an open
:mind. Obviously you can filter that through how
:you feel about things in the industry. But the thing is really
:getting around the right people and getting around the people who really want to succeed.
:Because when you're around three or four people who want to get to a certain
:level, it really kind of there's something that happens, you see, they
:want to grow, you want to grow, and then it kind of lifts
:the whole group. You don't want to be around the naysayers. But definitely keep an
:open mind. There's definitely a lot of opportunities in the trades.
:What you put in is what you get out in the trades. Ike, if
:people want to find out more information about you, social or your
:website, where do they go find you? Yeah, so Instagram, Tech Talk,
:YouTube at the construction Mentor underscores in between those
:words. And you can go check out. I have all my
:podcasts and everything listed on construction mentor.org
:There is. You can catch it on Spotify, my podcast. I bring on
:people that have been through some stuff. A lot of people that have gone
:from homelessness, addiction, you know, whatever, to making
:seven figures in the trades. Multi million in the trades. They have a lot of
:stories in there that reflect everything that we just talked about here. Walking into
:offices and asking for opportunities or trying to sell themselves to somebody,
:a contractor that knows how to do concrete when they really didn't know, but now
:they're doing seven figures a year because they figured it out as they went, you
:know. And lastly, for anybody who's interested in
:a career in construction management, or maybe you're already in the trades and you want
:to elevate to that next level out of the field or maybe start your own
:company, you can go check out the link in my bio on any of those
:platforms. And there's a intro course for what construction management is, what you can
:learn not only, you know, contracts and invoicing and construction
:administration and RFIs and submittals and trade knowledge about 14 different trades and how to
:coordinate those. But a lot of the soft skills that we talked about. The first
:third of the course is about like, how to manage up to
:older people, how to tell when people are lying to you and you have no
:experience, how to be that coffee bean and how to create that
:perception for people that you're somebody not only that people want to work with, but
:that wants to be mentored. So you can go check out that link, any one
:of those platforms again, at the Construction Mentor underscore in between
:those words, you know, links in the bio. So if you need anything from me
:too, you can always, you know, email me or DM me on any of those
:platforms. I try to do my best to get to everybody. Yeah,
:definitely check out Ike's links. Super valuable having you on the
:show today. Thank you for all the advice that you've given and keep doing what
:you're doing. I appreciate that, man. Thank you for having me and thank. You to
:our listeners. If you want more valuable insights and trades related information, head
:over to andrewbrown.net and join our Trades Movement
:newsletter where we advocate for the trades, we share inspirational
:stories like Ike, we provide resources and you join our
:passionate trades community. Don't forget to subscribe to the podcast so
:you never miss another episode. We'll see you next time.
:Thanks for listening to the Lost Art. Of the Skilled Trades. Visit
:us@AndrewBrown.net for more resources and tips.
:Join us next time for real stories and meaningful initiatives
:as we celebrate our men and women in the skilled trades and shape
:the future together.
