Barry Zekelman on Empowering Skilled Trades Careers, Leadership, and Industry Advocacy

Barry Zekelman [: 00:00:00

It's wonderful to know that you built something that people want to be a part of and take it to the next level and execute their ideas and hopefully their dreams and run along fast with us on the playing field. It's really great. Yeah, it's a company and it makes money and, you know, but we're more than that, right? We're not a corporation, We're a culture.

Andrew Brown [: 00:00:25

Hi, I'm Andrew Brown. You're listening to the Lost star of the skilled trades podcast. Podcast, a show that shines the spotlight on careers in the skilled trades that are high paying, honorable, rewarding and fulfilling. The trades are the backbone of the economy that keep us running. And without them, our world would cease to exist. Today we have a special guest, Barry Zelman, CEO of Zecelman Industries. Welcome, Barry, to the show.

Barry Zekelman [: 00:00:59

Thank you, Andrew. Glad to be here. Pleasure.

Andrew Brown [: 00:01:02

Entrepreneurship is one of the most difficult journeys, especially riding the ups and downs in your business. Working in the field and then moving to business ownership requires a whole new skillset. And a friend of mine had an event in his family business where he was in the elevator business and he was a technician, and his father suddenly passed away. 20 people in the company, 18 to 20 people. And all of a sudden he was like thrust into ownership. And really he didn't know what to do. He didn't know anything about employees or sales tax or running a company based off a culture. And he really struggled for the first couple of years trying to figure it out, and then joined a CEO group and got his stuff together and was able to manage from there.

Andrew Brown [: 00:01:56

And you had a very similar journey where when you were 19, your father passed away and you were left to make a decision. What was going through your head at that moment? How did you move ahead?

Barry Zekelman [: 00:02:09

Yeah, I mean, very similar type of scenario. The decision almost gets made for you, right? I mean, you've got this company that's there. In our case, it wasn't doing that well. There were five employees there. It was losing money. I guess the initial decision was just day by day to keep it going. And that requires day to day decisions and day to day stewardship and just keep your head above water. And we were already below water.

Barry Zekelman [: 00:02:34

So I mean, it's open, five guys there, there's material on the floor and a few customer orders. And it was like, geez, we just got to get to the end of the day when we can turn the lights off and go get a little few hours sleep and then come back and do it again. So you kind of didn't Have a choice. It propelled itself. Now, once you got over that initial shock, it was like, okay, can we make this work? What can we do with it? You know, there was obviously a great deal of pride that was there that my father had started this business. There was confidence in ourselves to some degree, myself and my brothers. There was survival. There were your teammates that were there that were at stake, that had jobs there.

Barry Zekelman [: 00:03:15

You know, we started to quickly learn that you buy steel for X, you sell tubing for Y. If we can make enough in the middle, we can keep the lights on. And, you know, that was the first order in magnitude of business and that's where it started. So I had a lot of entrepreneurial genes and drive in me from my younger years, from whatever it was, a lemonade stand, delivering papers to washing dishes, to whatever. Right. And I wanted to control my own destiny. So it was a big decision. It was a scary decision.

Barry Zekelman [: 00:03:47

You know, many, many sleepless nights and waking up in a cold sweat when you did fall asleep and wondering how you're going to make it through the week. But you know, every time you accomplished something and met a goal, it was hugely rewarding and build a momentum of confidence in you, in your decision making and in your ability to make it happen. I like that. We like that feeling. And that just becomes this momentum. You start to breathe it in and it's hard to get rid of. It was enjoyable and still is enjoyable. A lot bigger obviously today than it was then.

Barry Zekelman [: 00:04:23

But you never forget those initial moments and that initial feeling and the thrill that comes with it. It's really great. I actually think back to those days.

Andrew Brown [: 00:04:32

Quite often when your business is not doing well. You know, it's interesting in a group that I am in with CEOs and we do check ins and every time they ask us, how is your business, how is your health and how are you personally? And you don't realize if things are going on personally that can affect your business, things are going on with your health, that can affect other things too. Your organization at that point was losing money. Can you tie something back to like something that. I know the hard work and I completely get that. But is there something that was the turnaround that propelled you to start making money at that point? What was the aha moment?

Barry Zekelman [: 00:05:13

The big thing for us is we were really a babe in the woods, right? We didn't know any traditional way of doing things. We had some confidants that were friends with my father that we were able to seek advice from, some of which on a Daily basis. One gentleman who stayed on, who was working, working with my dad, Joe Panick, who I love dearly, he passed away some years ago, but was really probably, you know, should be credited with our being here today and our survival because he stuck it out. You know, here was this 40 or so year old guy with these 19 year old kid running the business and his brothers and you know, the guy should have probably ran for his life. But you know, he had a great deal of loyalty and he knew the ropes and you know, kind of stayed there to make sure that we were on track and, and help us out. So I started to realize the value of your success lies in your team and your people, right? I mean, I don't care what nice building you have or shiny equipment, none of it happens without people, none of it happens without engaged people. People who are, are skilled at what they do and are adept at what they do. And that didn't just go from the front office there, which we had one person in the office, which was Joe.

Barry Zekelman [: 00:06:27

It was the guys on the floor and their ability to be aligned with you, to have the same interest in success, to have a vested interest in success and empowerment. And we started to give those tools out pretty early to those guys. Gave them the ability to control their own destiny. And by that I mean their pay, what they earned, right? Incentives and gain, sharing their safety. Have a say in that. You know, talk with them all the time, be out there on the floor, walk a mile in their shoes, understand what they're going through, what they're dealing with. I mean, how do you expect someone to fix something when they don't have the proper tools? How do you expect someone to keep something running when they don't have the proper parts and supplies and what that means to a person and frustration levels that they might have in a day and how we can alleviate those and give them the proper tools to do their job and make both of us a success. So I really, really early on learned that the true power and strength of our company are the strength of our teammates, their skill set, the toolbox that I'm able to give them, that we were able to give them, it started to catch.

Barry Zekelman [: 00:07:34

We got more productive and we got more efficient. Allowed me time not to worry as much about that plant floor as I did. I had to go out and sell the product and build a customer base and buy our supplies and our raw material and do that at the right cost and become competitive. So I would say that the real secret is building that team around you, that you can trust and lean on and rely on knowing that they have the skill set to make it happen. And each and every one of us going out and doing the job that we're there to do, you know, making it all work together. So it was a real pleasure. I mean, you know, and I worked beside them. I was out on that floor sweating and getting dirty and grimy and cutting my hands up and, you know, understanding what went on and really respecting what they have to go through on a day to day basis to make it work.

Andrew Brown [: 00:08:25

When employees see that an owner or CEO is rolling up their sleeves and going to the factory, it says something. You've walked in those shoes before. And I'm a big believer of culture and businesses and giving employees empowerment. And one of my CEO coaches said to me very early on about empowerment and about giving employees trust, giving them authority so they don't have to seek all constant approval from you. And he brought up an example because he was CEO of Tourneau Watches and one of the stores had sold a very expensive watch to somebody. They couldn't get a ride after. They were looking for a taxi and they called a limo. They didn't seek approval, they just did it.

Andrew Brown [: 00:09:08

And then it got back to Howard, who is the CEO. He wasn't mad. He was like, I empowered my people to make the right decision. Obviously it was an expensive purchase, but those are the type of things, like to have your employees make the good decisions because they're trusted.

Barry Zekelman [: 00:09:27

You know, it's not only the good decisions, right. It's the bad decisions. You know, there's no way. You just talked to me before we started this podcast about the Yankees game last night. The baseball analogy is no one bats a thousand. I mean, imagine you pay tens and tens of millions of dollars a year for a hitter who bats 300. That's 1/3 of the time he's right. I want decision makers who aren't afraid to take a swing and they might miss.

Barry Zekelman [: 00:09:53

It's about your confidence and ability to take that swing. You're going to make wrong decisions. You're going to learn that pitcher is always throwing you a curveball or a sinker, and then eventually you're going to learn to hit it. And we want that too. Right? I want people to sweat when they make a decision. I want them to be a little bit nervous and a little bit scared because that means they're pushing their boundaries and they're pushing their limits and they're getting out of their comfort zone. And once they learn how to make Those decisions and make the right ones, they're going to be better and more powerful and more adept at what they do. So, you know, I love that.

Barry Zekelman [: 00:10:30

We want that. We want those decision makers. I make plenty of wrong decisions. And you have to admit them and learn from them and then adjust and make the right decision the next time and then have that confidence and then understand the risk reward there and the successes. When you have a success from your right decision, it's pretty darn gratifying, you know, and it's really cool to see. And I've. I've watched people in my company grow from very, very basic level plant floor personnel to leadership roles in the company of billion plus dollar divisions and many other areas in the company of purchasing and sales and finance. And they got there by their own doing.

Barry Zekelman [: 00:11:10

I mean, they got there by themselves, learning and wanting it and making those decisions and wanting that pressure. Pressure is a privilege. And that's how our company was built. You know, that's how our team was built. That's how our culture was built. I'm still on that plant floor today. We've got 3,000 employees. I've got 22.

Barry Zekelman [: 00:11:29

We just bought. I got into another business. So now 24 facilities. It's not a celebration when I show up to the plant. Oh, the CEO is here. It's a special day, you know, when I show up to the plant, it's like, hey, Barry. And I carry my lunch to the plant and I put my work boots on and my art hat and I can't wait to run out on the floor. It's not a celebration.

Barry Zekelman [: 00:11:50

It's. He's here to see how we're doing and what we need and what the mood is, the pace is and. And the feel what we can do to improve ourselves. And I'm there to again, continually try to walk a mile in their shoes and understand what they're going through and what our company's going through and what we need. And I think it's invaluable for you to get out there. There's a show on TV called, you know, the Undercover boss. And I can tell you there's no way that I could ever be undercover boss at our company, because they all know me. They all see me.

Barry Zekelman [: 00:12:22

No matter what disguise they put on me, they'd know just by the way I walk and the pace I walk through that plan that he's here. I think it means a lot. It does in our company. I can't speak for other companies, but I would highly, highly recommend it you see how your company really functions, start to make those changes and fixes that you need to to get better. It's invaluable.

Andrew Brown [: 00:12:44

You need to get the pulse of how things are running. Not every CEO is going to be completely hands on and it's great that you are. Again, I go back to the passion side and you had mentioned when you've met, I don't know if you told the story or overheard the story that there was a piece of something on the floor of trash and you picked it up. There's something about that that you're just all fully 110% invested into the organization, Stu, at this point, years later, going back to the employee piece because you said obviously having good people around you is most important. Having decision makers for people that are listening, that are just kind of starting their business. Maybe they don't have the right budgets to find, you know, maybe the right people. Where would they even start to if they didn't really have the funds to do that?

Barry Zekelman [: 00:13:31

Look, you're always assuming that it's a money thing. I can tell you I'm very confident there are hundreds and hundreds of people in our organization, if not thousands, who they're not just there for the money, they're there for a lot more. We created a culture of inclusion and empowerment and involvement and fun. We communicate our goals and our wants and who we want to be and what we want to represent. And I would like to think, and I'm very confident that many of the people in our organization are also there for who we are and who we represent and what we stand for and how we treat our teammates. And I'm sure we don't make everyone perfectly happy. Right? But we try to and that's what counts. I always want to do the right thing by them and by our community and by our customers and our suppliers.

Barry Zekelman [: 00:14:25

They don't always align perfectly, but I always want to do the right thing and let common sense prevail. So I would say a number one show who you are and what you stand for and make yourself into something in some type of company and someone who people are attracted to in terms of I want to be there. I think you need to show that as much as a financial reward for doing that and then providing a carrot and incentive to bring those people in. I may not be able to pay you the exact salary or hourly wage that you want, but if we can achieve this, then I will be able to do that. So what I'd like to do is propose to you this incentive system, you know, this kind of, if you do it, you'll earn it, right? And give them control of their own destiny and give them that carrot. A lot of people who are confident in themselves want that. And so it may not be that starting salary. It might be that incentive or that gain share or that special bonus if we achieve this.

Barry Zekelman [: 00:15:26

And those are ways to attract people. But I think it's a lot more than just pay. It's really exhibiting and showing who you are as a person that someone really wants to be attached to and has confidence in. You have to be a strong leader. They have to know that they're going to a place where they're going to be taken care of, they're safe, they understand the direction and they want to be a part of that. So, you know, attract someone to your company in that way as well.

Andrew Brown [: 00:15:54

I think people see the person leading is a visionary. They know where they're going, they care about the culture side of the business. And I agree, it's not all about the wages because you can go work for someone, make more money and be miserable. You don't want to go to work, right? You should be happy to go to work. You should be happy to take care of the customer for whatever you're doing. I'm a big believer on the culture side. I wanted to go back to what you said about you had said qualities of an entrepreneur or a CEO that you almost felt it was like bred in you. What are some of the characteristics of a good leader CEO entrepreneur that really thrives in that type of environment?

Barry Zekelman [: 00:16:38

Number one, I'm a dreamer. I'm a big dreamer from when I was a little kid just making things or doing things, whether it was jumping a ramp on my bike and wanting to jump longer and figuring out how to do it, everything. So I have a lot of passion for achieving things, achieving things that people think can't be done. So a lot of passion there. Some people want to hook up to that and run along with, hook their wagon to that. I have a tremendous amount of respect for people. I think you can learn something from everyone. Everybody has unique capabilities that are wonderful.

Barry Zekelman [: 00:17:14

They have qualities that are great and that can assist you. I have a lot of respect, you know, for someone who gets their fingernails dirty and works a long day and, you know, you don't have to have a college degree or university degree or skilled trades people who know how to fix things with their hands and make things happen. I, you know, when I was a kid, I tore my dirt bike engine apart and rebuilt it and I'd tear every bike apart and rebuild it and figure out how it worked and tried to make it work better. So, you know, you have to have a large degree, a high degree of confidence in what you're doing. And people like being around a confident person. Not cocky, but confident, respectful. You know, you've got to walk a mile in their shoes so they respect people who understand what they're going through. The greatest two qualities you can have are common sense and empathy.

Barry Zekelman [: 00:18:02

Common sense will always lead you to the right decision. Empathy shows people you care, you understand what's going on. You have that caring nature in you which will help you make more humanitarian, if you will, or decision making that is endearing. People will know they're in a good environment to be taken care of because that person does have empathy. I think they're just huge qualities that build a lot of respect and trust in the team that's around you. It's worked for me. I've been doing this for 39 years, and prior to my father passing and getting to this business, those were qualities that I used everywhere. Whether it was team building in sports or anything else I did, and little ventures that I had as a young man, I was able to attract people to run along with me.

Barry Zekelman [: 00:18:51

When you can get people to run with you and be on your team, it's hard to beat a good team. You just can't be this individual player. At some point you will burn out. You can't do it all. You can't see it all. You're not 24 7. You have to have that around you, and you're never going to be an expert at everything. So surround yourself with that team and those people who are experts at what they do.

Barry Zekelman [: 00:19:16

And when you do that and you put that all together, it's remarkable. And give them the ability to make their own decisions and make them feel relevant. That's really key.

Andrew Brown [: 00:19:26

Do you think it's possible you said a bunch of characteristics which I agree it's almost like to the t of what a good leader should be, do you think you're just born with it or do you think you can learn it over time? Or it's just a mix of both.

Barry Zekelman [: 00:19:41

A chunk of those qualities are just who you are and how you grew up. And they get instilled in you and ingrained, branded in you, if you will. At a very young age, you know, I saw my parents, hard workers, always cared about people, always took care of us, held us responsible, but were caring and loving. I think that did Build a lot of the qualities in us, myself and my two brothers that we have today. But I do think that a lot of it is learned behavior. Go out and have those jobs. See what it's like to work for someone who isn't a good leader and is a good leader. And what you liked about that and how you experience it, how you felt, what would you have done differently if you were the leader? And those are learning lessons.

Barry Zekelman [: 00:20:26

So you're not going to get that by sticking your nose in a textbook. You know how to learn not to touch a hot stove. You touch a hot stove, you know, that's just life experience and it leaves some scars, but, you know, some of those scars are good ones. And I think that you have to experience those things. And I think that young adults today and even younger kids should really try and experience that and go out and do that. You're just not going to learn that sticking your nose in a textbook. I know a lot of really, really smart people who never went to college. I didn't.

Barry Zekelman [: 00:20:57

I went for six months. And I'm not saying I'm super smart. I just have qualities that have got me here and enabled me to build this business. And I learned my life lessons along those years that I've put in here. So I'm an expert in my field, but not in many others. So putting your time in and learning those things are great. I also think that you need to be well rounded. You need to know a little bit about a lot of things.

Barry Zekelman [: 00:21:23

I still sew my button on my shirt when it pops off and, you know, can fix a zipper with a needle and thread and make it happen. Or I can, you know, easily fix things on my boat when they break, or my car when they break and around the house and MacGyver it and do that because I did those things. I think you need to be well rounded. It doesn't mean I'm an expert mechanic, but I can fix stuff. It doesn't mean I'm a seamstress, but I can get by and make it happen and cook my breakfast and cook my dinner and wash my clothes and all of those things. I think people should be experienced and be accountable and learn. And again, that's empathy too, right? You learn what it's like to have to do those other things. It's not fun detasseling corn.

Barry Zekelman [: 00:22:08

It's not fun picking bananas in 120 degree weather. But boy, every time I pick up a banana now I understand what people went through to get it to you and how hard it was and just what it is and what happens in that chain, again, I have a tremendous amount of respect for that. You need to get out there and experience things, is what I'm trying to say. And being well rounded like that will give you a lot of decision making capability, a lot of trust, a lot of respect. I think it'll serve people well.

Andrew Brown [: 00:22:39

I think another aspect is being self aware and knowing your shortcomings. And one thing we did as an exercise in our quarterly meeting was literally, my group was telling me some of the things that needed work or improvement. That's not always easy to hear because you never know. Oh, wait, I have a blind side here to hear that. But to be self aware, to be humble about the whole thing, okay, I need to improve in this area. In this area, like you said, like, you're not an expert in everything. I don't claim to be an expert in everything. I took the advice and worked on it to level myself up.

Andrew Brown [: 00:23:19

That takes time, that takes energy. But you have to be open and honest, to look at yourself in the mirror and to say, hey, I have a couple of things that need to work on. But as a leader, you need to do that. I find that's been so helpful in my career.

Barry Zekelman [: 00:23:33

I've used some coaching feedback and certainly have people around me who aren't yes men or women. Right. They'll tell me and sometimes I'm like, oh, you know, yeah, I guess you're right. And you need to self reflect, take stock and find ways to be better. There's. If anyone who works with me and with us will watch this podcast or listen to this podcast, tell you I know a few things that Barry could work on and I love to hear it and we do. And I'm not sure if by the end of my career or my life I'll be able to correct them all, but I'm going to try. I want to be better every day and I have a lot of shortcomings.

Barry Zekelman [: 00:24:08

That's why you surround yourself with people who can help fill those gaps, you know, who can pick me up. I mean, that's what a teammate does, right? You know, you see it on the football field every day, guys running backs down the ground and a lineman reaches over and gives them their hand and yanks them up off the ground. Well, that's what you do as a teammate. You don't step on them. You don't put your foot on their head or on their throat. You put your hand down and you pick them up. You want to build a team that does that. You don't want people climbing over your back to get ahead of you or on top of you.

Barry Zekelman [: 00:24:39

I'd like to think that that's what we have and we do. And that goes for me, too. Right. They're around to pick me up. I'm around to pick them up. I didn't have in the early years a coaching forum. I didn't even know what that was. You know, we had some people that I knew that were in business and knew my dad and were around him, and I'd pick up the phone and call them and I'd ask a lot of questions.

Barry Zekelman [: 00:25:03

You know, be humble. You know, admit what you don't know and ask the questions and learn, and you'll avoid a lot of mistakes. Hopefully, by doing that, you're still going to make them. But, yeah, you need to ask and you need to be humble and you need to realize that you're not all that. That's okay.

Andrew Brown [: 00:25:20

And I totally agree to that. And this is why I'm in a CEO group and I go to these meetings every month, and literally sometimes I get my head handed to me like, it's okay. They say it's lonely to be at the top because there's no one who's going to tell you how it is. But if you're with other CEOs, and especially in different industries, wow, I'll take a schlack. I mean, it doesn't really matter because I'm open and honest and I'm just willing to get better. Also, obviously, to grow as a leader, you need to delegate. And obviously, with a large organization like yourself, you can't be in all different places in all different departments. I call it delegating and elevating.

Andrew Brown [: 00:25:56

How have you had to do that over the course of your career? Was it difficult to give up certain aspects of your role?

Barry Zekelman [: 00:26:04

It's necessity, right? I mean, you're never going to make it happen, or at least you won't get it done to the level of perfection and level of satisfaction that you want to get it done. You have to delegate it and you have to have that trust. There are many times where I will parachute back in, you know, and I do into certain situations because they require my attention as well. And that's the. Your teammates on the ground and put your hand down and help them up. You know, that's what I look for. That's what I do. I roam around and look for problems that I might have the ability to help my teammates with as long as I'm not roaming around creating problems, then that's okay.

Barry Zekelman [: 00:26:47

I'm here to look at this company with a long term vision and a plan. I'm here to make sure that I built a proper racetrack and the proper guardrails that, you know, all my team is in those cars running around that track. And I keep them on the track and I keep the cars in tune and I keep the drivers trained. And when they're about to hit some guardrails or that I, I have the guardrails there so they don't go off the road, but I also give them a gentle push back on the track and let them go. Right. That's what I'm there to do. Again, you have to let that happen or you're never going to win the race. I mean, we have people in hr, we have people in it, we have people in finance, we have people in planning and purchasing and all of these areas, talent recruitment that are so much more better at their job than I could ever, ever be or ever even hope to be.

Barry Zekelman [: 00:27:43

I don't view that as a threat. I think you're insecure if you view that as a threat. I welcome every one of their help and areas of expertise and their ability to go out and make it happen. And it just makes my life easier and allows me to focus on where the leadership of this company needs to be focused and the direction. Sometimes I might feel they need help or I might want to look in to see if they need help and they might assure me they don't. And then I run off into another direction to see if someone in that door needs help and just make sure I'm giving them, you know, my time and my stewardship and asking them what they might need. That's what it's about. When we were a small company and I looked at these big companies, I couldn't fathom how someone could manage 500 people, a thousand people, 2,000 people.

Barry Zekelman [: 00:28:33

You know, you kind of train yourself and you have these people and systems around you where you can absorb that. It wouldn't scare me to go buy a company that has a thousand employees. I mean, we're very confident in our ability to do that because of A, our team and our capability to absorb that. But B, the company I would be buying, I know that they have a team too. I would want them because they got there with a great team. You know, it's not just the physical asset. You really have to have those people around or you just can't do it. So your initial question was delegate.

Barry Zekelman [: 00:29:04

If you don't delegate, you're dead.

Andrew Brown [: 00:29:06

I could just imagine with over 3,000 employees, you need to have that streamlined. I always find sometimes that you give up certain things that maybe you love, but you have to delegate it to somebody else to move forward to and to grow.

Barry Zekelman [: 00:29:21

That was the other part. Did you find it hard? Yes, I found it hard. Very hard. As a matter of fact, I'm sitting here today in my home office and the initial plant that we took over from my dad and started is 30 minutes away from me. And I spent every day there, many, many hours. And I'm not there now. And the reason I'm not there, although I would die to be there, is that if I'm there then I'm going to run it. And I can't do that.

Barry Zekelman [: 00:29:46

I had to let go because I know the team that's there, that's running it is doing a fantastic job and that's not my job anymore. And it's their job and they're really good at it for sure, better at it than I could be today. So I need to let them do that or I'll probably screw it up. And it's hard because I'm here. And they say it's lonely at the top. I mean, thank God I have my dog, otherwise it would be really lonely at the top. But yeah, it becomes lonely because you're giving those things up and you're out of that action. It's like being the quarterback on the field to then being the coach on the sideline, to then being the coach up in the box and to then being the general manager and you're removing yourself from the playing field.

Barry Zekelman [: 00:30:30

But yet remembering the game and the excitement of the game and it's hard. I want to be in the game. Yeah, it's tough, but you know, you have to do it because a 57 year old quarterback taking a hit isn't going to be good. So yeah, I've got to take myself off the playing field. I'm not the quarterback anymore.

Andrew Brown [: 00:30:49

I could see how that would be difficult to. You know, time marches on and you need to be in a different role. When you get to a certain level of success for an entrepreneur, some get complacent at that point, you seem to just keep pushing forward. What's keeping the fuel going and burning desire behind that?

Barry Zekelman [: 00:31:09

I can't say that there aren't moments where we've gotten complacent and uncomfortable and made certain mistakes. I think that's part of it. Right. But the key is realizing that you just did that. I have a chip on my shoulder. I mean, when I was a 19 year old kid coming into this business, you couldn't do it. You couldn't do it. You're not going to survive.

Barry Zekelman [: 00:31:28

That's not the way it's done. You don't know what you're doing. I will tell you that almost 40 years later, I still have the same chip. I want to prove something. I love what I do. I want to be the best at what we do. I have a huge responsibility to all of our teammates that are here that we do it right. Because if we screw up, it affects them.

Barry Zekelman [: 00:31:49

This company they depend on, it's their living, it puts a roof over their head, it feeds their families and many generations of that, which is remarkable. We have three and four generations that have come through this company and it's great, it supports communities. So there's pressure there. Our suppliers, our customers depend on us. So we have to move ahead. We have to keep feeding. The company's a living, growing thing and if you don't feed it, it starves. And if you feed it the wrong food, it gets lethargic and fat and lazy.

Barry Zekelman [: 00:32:24

And if you don't train it and exercise it properly, it isn't going to be strong enough to keep playing the game. So we have to do those things. You can't sit still enjoying the fruits of your labor. I enjoy what I do and I enjoy the accomplishment that we achieve together and as a company and everyone else achieves from it. And that's what a leader does. Have to be cognizant of that and aware of that all the time and make sure that you're stewarding it and when you're not, when it comes to the point that I don't have that, then it's time for a new leader to step in and take over. And I certainly don't feel that today. I have more ideas and drive than I've ever had.

Barry Zekelman [: 00:33:09

I'm more excited today than yesterday and the day before and the day before. I don't see that changing for quite some time. But that's what you have to do and it's a lot of fun. I really don't consider this work. I just got done a three day trip where we whipped around with some of my board members, my brother, others to all these plants and they just shook their head and they said, I mean, we saw it in reports and what we talk about, but to go out and physically see what we're doing in these plants and what it's going to lead to and what we're going to achieve, it's remarkable. And everyone was excited after. And I, I said, yeah, dad, just wait till we come back in a year. And you see it all executed and going and it's great.

Barry Zekelman [: 00:33:47

It's a lot of fun. It just isn't work for me. It's my life.

Andrew Brown [: 00:33:50

When you say it's not work for you and that's what it is, that's what keeps you going. It doesn't feel like work. And I always remember my father, who was a small business owner in industrial supply company, always said I was always happy to go to work. It's not like he got a Sunday night blues. He just was happy to go to work. And you want to be somewhere where you're passionate. All these years later, you're still passionate doing it. It just keeps driving you forward.

Barry Zekelman [: 00:34:14

It's great. You know, Andrew, when you bring in these young people in for internships and a lot of them are getting hired and they're just, it's remarkable what I see in the people that we're hiring and bringing in and showing them our company and our facilities and our culture and then seeing the excitement that they have and the ideas that they have, it gives me even more energy to go do it. It's really, it's wonderful to know that you built something that people want to be a part of, take it to the next level and execute their ideas and hopefully their dreams and run along fast with us on the playing field. It's really great. Yeah, it's a company and it makes money. But we're more than that, right? We're not a corporation, we're a culture. It's not always about the last dollar. It's about doing the right thing and achieving your long term goal.

Barry Zekelman [: 00:35:07

I don't have to meet a quarter point for my stock price. I play the long game and there's probably great flexibility with that and the ability to actually make what I feel are better long term decisions for all the stakeholders that are involved with us. It's a privilege to be a part of that and have that ability.

Andrew Brown [: 00:35:29

This has been an amazing conversation. But before we leave the studio today, what is one of your special tools of the trade, practical steps that you can recommend for young tradespeople who want to grow their careers, whether as skilled workers or as a future leader in the industry?

Barry Zekelman [: 00:35:50

Talking specifically about trades, because I've pushed this for many years. I saw this coming, right where everybody got pushed to go off into this academic route and many of those people weren't meant to go on that. And that's not a bad thing. I don't know why we diminished it. I don't know why we degraded it and looked down upon those people and frowned. I never did. I was always quite proud to be around anyone who was adept with their hands and had a skill set and including doing stuff myself. And the reward you got for that, paying that price today, I think that people should do what's comfortable for them.

Barry Zekelman [: 00:36:29

Success isn't about how much money you made or make. Success is about how gratified, fulfilled and happy you are. And that comes in a lot of different forms. And with success, if defined in that nature, can lead to a lot of different types of rewards. One of them might be money and financial success. But the reward of being really happy and satisfied and gratified and comfortable with what you do far outweighs the money. And someone might say, oh, it's easy for you to say, Barry, you've got the money. I never chased the money.

Barry Zekelman [: 00:37:07

I chased the victory. I chased running for that three yards and getting it. I chased trying to be the best at what we do. I chase trying to take care of everybody around me and make people want to be around us and be part of us, including our customers and our suppliers. I want them to sell to us. I want them to buy from us. I want the communities to like us, respect us as a person. That was just what I wanted, and it's given me the greatest wealth of all.

Barry Zekelman [: 00:37:37

Right, you know, just happy and fulfilled, along with my family, my kids. But everyone in the company is part of that. I would say to people, there's a say, oh, pursue what you love. You may not even know what you love yet. I wanted to be a fighter pilot. Go do in the moment what makes you happy and gives you gratification, and you'll be surprised at where that takes you. So if you say to someone that you want to be an auto mechanic, or you want to be a PLC technician, or you want to be a carpenter or a plumber, an electrician or a pipe fitter, don't worry about what everybody else thinks. If that's what you want to do and that's what makes you happy, go do it.

Barry Zekelman [: 00:38:18

You don't know where that's going to. If you love it, it will lead you on the pathway to where you want to get to. And again, that might be a plumber with two trucks or one truck or working for someone or a plumber with 50 locations. I don't Know, do what makes you happy at the end of the day and you will find success like many others haven't. And that's the definition. Don't define it as what you have in terms of money and what you make. Pursue what you're capable of doing and what you're good at and what you feel comfortable, what you're going to be successful at. And that might not be a computer programmer or a mathematician or a lawyer or a doctor.

Barry Zekelman [: 00:38:58

It very well might be a drywaller or a woodworker and that's okay. And there's nothing wrong with that. Hold your head up really high and go be the best one there is.

Andrew Brown [: 00:39:10

Follow your passion. I completely understand not fully chasing the money. Hopefully the money maybe comes along with it, but that's not the first, highest, highest priority. Changing people's lives, making things sort of better. And if you want to work with your hands, so be it. And that's why I instill that all around the country and social media about working with your hands and about the fulfillment of working with your hands. I think that's great advice. Barry, where do people find more about your company? Website or social media? They want to find out more resources.

Barry Zekelman [: 00:39:42

Yeah, I mean, we're on LinkedIn, we're all over, but mostly just go to our website, zuckerman.com and go explore. We have lots of opportunities. Go look at the cool things we're doing and the different divisions and where our product goes and what it's into. I mean, you can't walk five or six feet without running into something we do. It's interesting to see it and where it is and you'll get a different appreciation for what we can achieve and how important we are. And I say we, not just Zecelman. I mean we as a country, as individuals, what we make and how it all interconnects with our day to day lives is part of our very existence. And our product goes into everything from gym equipment to buildings, to energy plants to food processing plants, to transportation.

Barry Zekelman [: 00:40:29

It's all over a day doesn't go by that you're not affected by what we do. And many, many tens of thousands of other companies that do the same thing that affect your lives and they're hardworking people that make that happen. I just have a ton of respect for them because without them we're not getting it done and we need them. I need you more than you need me and we're counting on you, so go do it. The skilled trades are have a long, long Runway and a great one and I think people should really take a hard look at them and go enjoy themselves and do what gives them great fulfillment.

Andrew Brown [: 00:41:04

Barry, thank you so much for being on the show today.

Barry Zekelman [: 00:41:06

Yeah, my pleasure. Thank you. And thanks for all you do. You've got a great story yourself. I'm sure the people that listen to your podcast know it. Really remarkable and it's just proof of exactly what we've been talking about. You find what you love to do and you make a big difference.

Andrew Brown [: 00:41:20

So thank you and thank you to our listeners. If you're looking for a dynamic keynote speaker to elevate your next event, head over to andrewbrown.net and review some of my speaking topics, trades awareness, career exploration, advocacy, and addressing the trade shortage. Don't forget to subscribe to the podcast so you never miss another episode. We'll see you next time.

Barry Zekelman [: 00:41:45

Thanks for listening to the lost start of the skilled trades. Visit us@AndrewBrown.net for more resources and tips. Join us next time for real stories and meaningful initiatives as we celebrate our men and women in the skilled trades and shape the future together.