The Future of Welding & Skilled Trades Careers with AWS President Michael Krupnicki

Michael Krupnicki [: 00:00:00

There's some welding jobs where you're sitting down at a bench in a climate controlled shop, just like an electrical technician or, you know, a nurse would be. Right. And then there's also climbing up on tall buildings in structural steel or welding pipelines, which is more physical. Now, in terms of safety, welding can be dangerous work. Sure it can, but so is a lot of the trades. But in this day and age, you know, manufacturers and contractors, they're not taking any risks with safety.

Andrew Brown [: 00:00:34

Hi, I'm Andrew Brown. You're listening to the Lost star of the Skilled Trades podcast, a show that shines the spotlight on careers in the skilled trades that are high paying, honorable, rewarding and fulfilling. The trades are the backbone of the economy that keep us running. And without them, our world would cease to exist. Today we have a special guest, Michael Krupnicki, current president of the American Welding Society. Welcome, Michael, to the show.

Michael Krupnicki [: 00:01:09

Thank you, Andrew. It's very nice to be here with you today. I'm a huge fan.

Andrew Brown [: 00:01:13

Likewise, Michael. And thanks for being here. Kids love games. I know my kids love games. They're younger, they're always on the Xbox, they're always on the iPad for whatever reason, love it or hate it, they're always on some type of device. And one way to introduce welding to the younger generation is through VR simulation and aws. The American Welding Society, for people who don't know, the American Welding Society has a huge trailer that they take around the country. I had the pleasure of actually visiting the trailer when I went to the prior fabtech show, which I was a little upset I didn't go this year.

Andrew Brown [: 00:01:51

I had that, fortunately a conflict that I couldn't be there. But I had a chance to go on this trailer. It's a massive trailer and they have five or six Lincoln electric virtual welding machines. And I got to try my hand at welding and I did this simulation and I got an 80 out of 100. Even the guy who was helping me said, have you done any welding before? No, I've never done this before, but at least I got a feeling of working with my hands. And the kids surrounding me were super excited to try the simulation. How important is VR simulation in welding to get kids interested?

Michael Krupnicki [: 00:02:27

Today, I think it's playing a bigger and bigger role. Andrew, thanks for mentioning that trailer, but I need to give a shout out to the Lincoln Electric Company because they sponsor that for the American Welding Society. So they're putting huge financial resources into that trailer. Not only the trailer itself and the equipment, but helping us fund to Haul it all over the country to expose young people to it. So we like to take that trailer to events that are going to have large numbers of people. It's expensive to haul around, and we try to bring in as many young people and old people to expose them to welding in a way that's safe. Right. Because, you know, welding, if you're going to actually strike an arc, you got to get all geared up and this and that, and it's easy for the kids to just go in and lay down some beads in a VR environment and see what it's like.

Michael Krupnicki [: 00:03:16

So, to your point, with kids being so interested in electronics and video games, it is a way to expose them to welding and hopefully get them excited to where they're curious enough to say, hey, now I want to try it for real.

Andrew Brown [: 00:03:29

Yeah, I just saw the faces. It was just super excited. Whoever some people were interested in just trying it because it's a game, but some of them, obviously, they're there because they like welding or working with their hands. I also happened to look around the trailer, and it's a really cool trailer. And I'm looking around, and I saw a sculpture, and I'm looking like, wait a second. I know that work. That is Barbie the Welder. Went up close, like, yeah, that's one of her statues.

Andrew Brown [: 00:03:57

Now, that was, I believe, donated to the AWS trailer at some point.

Michael Krupnicki [: 00:04:01

That was actually done by Barbie the Welder and Stephanie Hoffman. They did that as a collaboration, and I would imagine that they donated it for the trailer. I'm not 100% sure, but I think that they did.

Andrew Brown [: 00:04:12

But it displays what you can do with your hands. And I had a chance to meet Stephanie Hoffman at the show. I've also had the opportunity to meet Barbie the Welder. I had her on the podcast a handful of months ago. And just watching, you know, the work that she does, the inspiration she has, just the work is just unreal. And she inspires so many kids out there that working with your hands is really a good route to go, you know?

Michael Krupnicki [: 00:04:38

Agreed. And, you know, one of the questions out there now is, you know, how do we attract young people, you know, A, to the trades and then, B, specifically, in my world, to welding. People like Barbie and Stephanie, you know, young people and females in particular. Doing artwork is one way to do that, where people aren't just, you know, trying to imagine, you know, am I going to weld on a bridge? Am I going to weld on a pipe? I mean, not that those are bad things, but in terms of Attracting young people to see that, that's a big help. No doubt about it.

Andrew Brown [: 00:05:10

Yeah. They each do their own part in this. And there's Nate Bowman, the weld scientist I've had on the show, and he's doing his thing and he's got a large Instagram following. Each one is doing their own pieces and parts. A lot of these people in the trades, whether it's in welding or plumbing or electrical, on social media, they're displaying what it's like to work with your hands a day in the life. Where years prior you were talking about attracting people, I believe that's one of the ways that kids are really getting interested. Before you really had to be around it, you had to be on the job side. You had to see things.

Andrew Brown [: 00:05:47

You'd had to be on a bridge, a tunnel, just to see the work. But now you can see a day in the life of any trade on social media.

Michael Krupnicki [: 00:05:55

Absolutely right. It is such a big recruitment tool for the trades. As you may know, I have my own private welding school here in Rochester, New York. And when I talk to some of the young students that have enrolled, I ask them, you know, what got you interested in welding? And it was Instagram, it was YouTube. It was seeing this stuff on the Internet and building that curiosity where they said, hey, I want to check this out. Came and paid us a visit and then decided, yep, this is how I want to start my career. So, yeah, the Internet and these influencers are playing a huge role. I'll also mention too, that as I've traveled around the country in my role as AWS president, another thing that's helping tremendously is there's been a lot of money poured into schools to either build brand new schools or upgrade some of the old tired welding programs with new equipment, new attitudes.

Michael Krupnicki [: 00:06:49

And when parents and the young people go into these schools, it is such a great recruiting tool now for them to envision, wow, this isn't just a dark, dirty, dangerous career by going into some old Weezer shop. They're going into these beautiful, like, operating rooms, you know, like white rooms, clean rooms. Now for welding training in the high school and the trade school. So that's helping tremendously to attract not only the kids, but the moms and dads too, to get behind it, the parents.

Andrew Brown [: 00:07:19

It's interesting, depending who you have the conversations on, you had touched upon the safety side. A lot of people, and I love to get your feedback on this. A lot of people look at welding and say, it's dangerous. Yes, there's the safety side of it, but you're welding in different positions. And I'll talk about this just freely and openly on social media because I'm so active on social media. A lot of the pushback from kids today are wages and I don't want to say abuse, but just going and welding in different positions over time. You know, when you're a little bit older, you can have back problems, you can have a shoulder problem, the weight side of it too. Kids are saying, wait, wait, wait, wait.

Andrew Brown [: 00:08:00

Why would I want to do welding and put myself in this situation when I can do something else? And maybe social media, I this is what I'm seeing on social media. How do you push back to kids who are saying, yeah, it's not safe and there's no money to be made in welding.

Michael Krupnicki [: 00:08:16

A couple of questions bundled in there. So from the safety aspect, I'll start out by saying, yeah, in a lot of cases welding is a physical job. I mean, not all the time. There's some welding jobs where you're sitting down at a bench in a climate controlled shop just like an electrical technician or you know, a nurse would be. Right. And then there's also climbing up on tall buildings and structural steel or welding pipelines, which is more physical. Now in terms of safety, welding can be dangerous work. Sure it can, but so is a lot of the trades.

Michael Krupnicki [: 00:08:51

But in this day and age, you know, manufacturers and contractors are not taking any risks with safety. Larger companies all have safety professionals on site. There's lots of regulations around there. We're not hearing about an unusual amount of injuries taking place in the welding trade. So I think there's a bit of a myth there.

Andrew Brown [: 00:09:13

I agree that. And you know, the safety side, it's come a long way over the course of a handful of years. Even the gear, the welding helmets. When I had a live about a year or so ago, a welding live that I brought on Joe Young, the American Welding Society and Matt Scott, who is another well known person in welding. And I'd asked them too about safety and they were talking about the safety gear, they were talking about the apparatus and the helmets and like you said, all the regulations behind it that you should feel safe when working on the job.

Michael Krupnicki [: 00:09:49

The deer has come a long way. It's not like 100 years ago, you know, you mentioned the fumes. So most shops have forced air removal of fumes from the shop and snorkels right over the welding area if it's particularly smoky or maybe the materials being welded on might be a little more dangerous. There's helmets that have forced air filters on them that are blowing nice, cool, clean air. I just don't see that as a big factor anymore. There's plenty of mitigation around fumes and other dangers of welding.

Andrew Brown [: 00:10:20

I do think putting out the right information to people out there so they get a good understanding. I think it's the people that just don't really understand and they just look at it from afar and they just see sparks and fumes and wow, you're breathing, you know, all that in all day. But they don't realize the safety measures that are really put in to keep safe in welding or trade.

Michael Krupnicki [: 00:10:41

If a young welder goes to work for someone that does not have a safe shop, you know, whether they're not providing proper safety PPE or it's just a dangerous shop, then they should leave and go find a place somewhere else. It's as simple as that, too. So inherently the trade is safe, but you're always going to find knucklehead employers that are that don't understand the value of keeping their employees safe and healthy.

Andrew Brown [: 00:11:05

On the wages side, the average age on welding workforce data, which I follow, which is I guess maintained by the American Welding Society, you can correct me if I'm wrong, says the average per hourly rate for welding, or median average rate is $25.96 or $53,500. Would you say that's accurate across the board as a medium wage that people can expect working a handful of years in welding?

Michael Krupnicki [: 00:11:35

You know, that's a difficult question to answer because there's so many variables such as the region, the industry, kind of across the board. Folks coming out of a trade school or maybe a very good high school can start in the low 20s, some again, depending on what trade they go right into. I've been hearing the high 20s, but in general, this is an area that does grind my gears a little bit because I hear employers complaining that they can't find any welders. Then I'll ask them, well, how much are you offering? And it's a dollar or two more than they can making a sandwich. And so what do you expect? These are skilled tradespeople looking for a career. And the smart employers are beginning to realize that, yeah, they may lose some people sooner than they want to. There might be some transient employees that are immature or whatever, and they leave after six months. You're going to have that.

Michael Krupnicki [: 00:12:36

But I found that the progressive employers are offering a little bit more money and they understand that they have to be active participants in Furthering those employees, training to make them better employees, and offering them good perks to stay around. It's not like 20 or 30 years ago where it's throw somebody out, bring somebody new in. Employees are a big investment. Call me an optimist, but I've been around, you know, again, I have my own welding school. I see my own graduates. Give them a chance, treat them right, continue to train them and show them some love and build that workforce. But you can't offer them $18 or $19 an hour and ask them to do the kind of work that they're doing, go to school, get all trained up for that kind of money. And I tell them that.

Michael Krupnicki [: 00:13:25

They don't like to hear that, but it's like, you know, you asked my opinion. I told you, raise your pay a little bit.

Andrew Brown [: 00:13:30

I see it from both sides. I see it from, obviously, the employee side, but I also see it from the entrepreneur, the person putting up all the risk of maintaining the business. I see both sides. If $19 or $20 is too low, what if you're a really small business and the profits are not there? How do you really get a good person in welding?

Michael Krupnicki [: 00:13:52

I'm an entrepreneur, so I think I can answer this. If you can't offer wage, there's other forms of compensation, right? So one of the things that I tell students about to graduate as they embark on the decision of who should I go work for? You know, some people, they want to work for where they can make that last nickel. Is that last nickel a place where you're going to do a lot of boring work and not learn anything, or is it a place, you know, for a nickel less that you can do a whole bunch of different types of welding, different types of project where you can really learn and grow? Is it a small company where you can be a welder for a year or two and then suddenly become a supervisor or get into a different area of the profession? So if I'm a small employer unable to keep up with wages, I have to be creative in how I entice those people on. And I think it's the work environment and making the young people feel important, training them and exposing them to as many learning opportunities as I can, then I gotta keep them happy, right? Because once they get some experience, they're gonna be inclined to say, wow, where can I go take this More so than ever, I don't care whether it's welding or what profession it is. Employers just have to be more cognizant about keeping their good employees Happy and understand, you know, if somebody hired six welders, maybe three of them leave in three or four months, that's going to happen. You got to build in that attrition rate into your business model somehow. But you got to keep those good ones and keep them happy. Because as you know, Andrew, the cost of replacing people and retraining and all that is most people don't even know how expensive that truly is.

Michael Krupnicki [: 00:15:31

That's my advice to small businesses that are struggling to keep up. It's just create a great environment for them, a good family environment where the employees are in a number and where you're training them and really taking an interest in them.

Andrew Brown [: 00:15:43

I am a big believer that it's not all wages, that there's culture, there's, like you said, if you make a dollar here or a dollar there. But here's the thing, that company might not be a good place to work. Right. If you're just going there just for the money and you're just not being treated right. If I was in that position, I'd rather go somewhere where I am respected and then I can earn my way up versus just taking an extra dollar here and just being miserable waking up every day and just not being happy and not learning enough. But when I was speaking to Nate Bowman, the wealth scientist, he even said, I asked the same question, say, look, kids are saying there's no money. He said, you know, I have two, three jobs. I gotta do what you gotta do, right? If it's someplace that's not treating you right, absorb as much information or be a sponge there.

Andrew Brown [: 00:16:30

Take all the skills that you can. If you need to leave, you need to leave, but at least gather the information and get more experience under your belt so you can take that to the next shop. Don't just say, oh my God, well, this is just me and I can't go anywhere. You need to be proactive instead of reactive. And if you need to move, you need to move. Also, it's dependent upon location. Some people also are out there saying, just where I am, I just can't make the money. So does that person need to move if they want to be a welder? Should they travel somewhere else?

Michael Krupnicki [: 00:17:02

Yeah, I mean, it's a possibility. As I mentioned to you earlier, it can be regional again. As I've traveled around the country, I have, I've been pleasantly astounded by some of the entry level wages in different parts of the country. And then I think about other spots where they're not as generous. So do you need to move geographically, I'd like to say no. It's just a matter of, you know, getting into that right employer in your area that you want to live in. It might be a little bit of work. It might be knocking on some doors and making some phone calls.

Michael Krupnicki [: 00:17:32

I mean, obviously being president of aws, I'm a big proponent of all welders should be members of AWS and get involved in their local sections. If you're coming to our events and getting to know people and networking, that's where you find out where the opportunities are and who's hiring and who's growing and you know, who you want to stay away from. So I'm not going to say you have to move. If you want to be a shipbuilder, you're probably not going to find that in Iowa. Different parts of this industry that are geographically located, but I don't know that you have to do it for. Specifically for money.

Andrew Brown [: 00:18:09

Yeah, I think you need to do what's right for you. Getting up and moving somewhere else might not be the easiest thing. Some people do travel for work, but it really depends on your situation and what you want to do and how far you want to take it.

Michael Krupnicki [: 00:18:23

You know, I found this is an unscientific observation of mine, but I found that it seems like no matter where a person is raised, they want to move somewhere else. Up here with our snowy northeast, a lot of people go to college up here and get an education and then they want to move either to a big city or they want to move down south and we have a brain drain. I found it interesting that a lot of welders want to stay put, but I do encourage young people that, you know, recently got their training that haven't got roots down yet to explore because there's a lot of action going on around this great country of ours, Whether it's, you know, infrastructure construction or specific industries that you might want to work in. Don't limit yourself to just that fab shop up the street or around the corner. Get out there and explore a little bit while you're young and see what you like and keep your options open there. You know, I led a sheltered life, spending most of my time here in Rochester. And now that I've been around the country, it's absolutely mind blowing. All the different types of welding, the different industries that I've seen, I, you know, here in Rochester, I joke around and say, you know, half inch thick steel was considered heavy, heavy welding.

Michael Krupnicki [: 00:19:36

And I've been to places where they weld steel 8 inches thick and half inches sheet metal to them. I do encourage kids to look around and if you, you know, if you want to stay put, that's fine too. But it's a big country out there with a lot of opportunities.

Andrew Brown [: 00:19:51

If I am kind of starting out and maybe in my local region, it's just not for me. But I want to find out more what's out there. Is there any resources? Like how do I know what's going on on the west coast or south? Like outside of just networking and asking people, how do you keep track of what's going on, the projects that are going on that maybe I want to go be a part of?

Michael Krupnicki [: 00:20:12

Yeah, that's a great question, Andrew, and I'm not sure I've got a silver bullet answer there. I think it's a bunch of things. The low hanging fruit is to go back to the Internet and following different people from around the country. You know, again, I'm a proponent for the American Welding Society. We are a brotherhood and sisterhood that is very open to young people reaching out to us and asking us. So once a student becomes a member and it is free with AWS now, or even if you're a young professional, it's like $35 a year that gives you access to people all over the country in every industry to reach out to.

Andrew Brown [: 00:20:52

I'm a member myself. But being a part as a student gives you access to know what's going on out there. If you want a resource of some sort, maybe you want to speak to someone else. Would AWS help that individual, set them up with somebody else who's, you know, a little bit further down the road in their career. Is there mentorship options of some sort?

Michael Krupnicki [: 00:21:14

So we don't have any formal mentoring, ship program for students or you know, just general members for aws. But as I mentioned, if you start going to your local section meetings for a young person, I always tell them, don't stand up against the wall with your head down and making no eye contact. You got to get up there and shake some hands and introduce yourself. One of us gray hairs or somebody will cling to you and can mentor you. Now there's a lot of variability there, but you get up into the ranks. Like if you opened up the front page of the welding journal and looked at the board of directors and you found the one in your part of the country and reached out to that district director, they will clue you into a universe of people that can help them. To your point, if somebody said, Mike, I really Want to move out to California, I want to move out to the Central Valley. How do I get a job out there? I know the district director personally and I can reach out and say, I have a young individual.

Michael Krupnicki [: 00:22:12

If he flies out there or if he calls you on the phone, will you coach him? Will you coach her and put her in front of some people? And I assure you they will. I can't speak enough about the value of the relationships of being in the AWS that can help you locally and nationwide. You may have to call more than one person. I'm not saying you're going to hit a home run with the first person you reach out to, but if you're tenacious and you don't give up easy and you move around, you call one of the directors or one of the officers, you call me. I will get you connected immediately.

Andrew Brown [: 00:22:44

What I also like on the American Welding Society for people who obviously want to go down the rabbit hole of finding more information about the organization, but at least the assessment tool of taking the assessment and trying to figure out what type of welding position that you want because there's so many options. Can you go through a little bit, some of the options within welding kids can look at?

Michael Krupnicki [: 00:23:07

Yeah, I mean, this is. We're talking A to Z here. So I tend to think of it generically and well. Do you really like tig welding? Do you really like mig welding? Do you really like stick welding? Do you feature yourself as somebody, you know, kind of a rough and tumble person? Do you want to work outside in the elements, or would you rather do precision welding indoors? Once I've kind of established that, now we can dig into the industries. So some of the big ones, you know, industry wide that I've seen is shipbuilding along both coasts and along the Gulf is booming. If you want to work on whether it's commercial or Navy ships all around the country. Matt Scott, he's big up in the Northwest. I visited him last year and we went to a shipyard in the Midwest.

Michael Krupnicki [: 00:23:54

You know, the agricultural manufacturers in California, in Florida and Texas aerospace and the SpaceXs and the Blue Origins. I get kind of excited talking about all these different possibilities. Some folks say, well, I really, you know, I'm not in the military, but I'd like to work on defense. Well, you don't necessarily have to be at the shipyard putting the boat together. Pretty much every community has defense contractors building components, and you can play your role doing that. So tough question to answer specifically, Andrew, because there are just such a plethora a cornucopia of opportunities out there. Oftentimes, what people start off thinking they want to do can evolve. They might be that person that is rough and tumble and welding outside.

Michael Krupnicki [: 00:24:42

And they go, geez, you know, this is kind of nuts laying down in a mud puddle welding. I'd rather be indoors. So you change. What I also like to tell the young people is, although I would love to see you 35 years from now and have you tell me that you're still welding because we've needed you for those 35 years, there are so many directions that your career can take you in this field where you can leverage the knowledge you got in school and in your welding job. Getting into quality control, welding inspection and the like, getting into instruction. The welding society, we calculate we need like 80,000 new welders a year for at least the next five years. We need instructors. I go to companies and they say, well, we need welders, but we also need welding supervisors.

Michael Krupnicki [: 00:25:30

So there's opportunities for welders to move into management. The welding distributors and the OEMs need salespeople and consultants. They need service people and technicians. And you can go in and open up your own shop. There's just so many different directions a person can go into once they get into this industry. It's just incalculable. And I just think it's a golden age for young people. I'm.

Michael Krupnicki [: 00:25:55

I've been in this thing, Andrew, for 40 years now, and I haven't seen anything like it like I'm seeing right now.

Andrew Brown [: 00:26:02

So the opportunities are endless. But you touched upon the need for welders. You know this by heart. But the welding workforce data says that we need 330,000 welders by 2028. 82,500 welders every single year. 159,000 of them are retiring over the next five or ten years. It seems like there's so much opportunity because there's so many people retiring and the needs there. Some of the welders are out there saying, oh, that's good because I can charge more because it's not as many people in the trade.

Andrew Brown [: 00:26:33

But then again, there's not enough hands to get the work done, so there's going to be delays. Is this shortage getting better or is it getting worse?

Michael Krupnicki [: 00:26:43

I'll start by saying that, you know, after 30 or so years of the trades being shunned and every kid graduating high school needs to go to university, you go on a work site and I'm painting with a broad brush here. But the welders are either in their 50s or they're in their 20s. Where are the 30s and the 40s? We don't have that many of them. Right. Because again, it wasn't encouraged. Anecdotally, what I have seen, and I'm going to say maybe just prior to Covid, but certainly after Covid, that pendulum of interest in the trades, particularly welding, has swung massively and quickly. And thanks to folks like you and Mike Rowe and others that are promoting the trades, parents are now taking an interest in this. And so I'm seeing more young people interested, more parents willing to talk about it, government agencies flowing money into these schools.

Michael Krupnicki [: 00:27:44

I see it improving now. It's going to take a while, right, to get all these people through school and into the workforce and train. But I believe it's improving, Andrew, I truly do. I was out in Nebraska last week in Lincoln, and they're investing $43 million in this amazing school for welding in Nebraska. Sorry, Nebraska, but I think of what, are there 500 of you out there? You know, I'm a New Yorker, forgive me, but Lincoln, Nebraska is a booming part of the country and they're investing $43 million in a 96,000 square foot welding school that is going to be awesome. And so kids are going to want to go to that. The parents are going to say, I want my kids to go to that. And once they get out in the workforce and realize that, you know, after they get through that introductory phase, they can make some good money doing what they like to do and seeing the options that are out in front of them.

Michael Krupnicki [: 00:28:39

It's going to take a few years, Andrew, but I feel, I feel far more optimistic than I did a year and a half ago before I started traveling around as AWS president, seeing what's going on around the country. I was concerned what 10 years ago was maybe an inconvenience for employers to hire, find people to hire is a crisis. But I think as a nation, we're doing a good job to correct that. And I'm speaking specifically for welding.

Andrew Brown [: 00:29:04

Well, it's great that that's the pulse, that's what you're feeling traveling around, that things are getting better. And I, I feel that things are getting better. They did say that trade school was up about 16% last year, which is a good sign that kids are interested working with their hands. Gen Z is coined the tool belt generation. So they're looking at college, they're looking at a four year college degree versus like a trade school. I'm on the welding workforce Data website right now and it's saying, it's interesting to have a graphic where they say a four year college degree versus 12 months of a technical school and a technical school program is about $27,000. And the average student debt is about $12,000. But a bachelor's degree four year college degree is $138,000.

Andrew Brown [: 00:29:49

But the average student debt is about 33,500. But over a course of return, because everyone wants to know, what's the ROI? What's the return on investment after 10 years on a four year college degree, it's $231,600. Welding over 10 years is $452,000. Because you're not in this massive. I mean, is that accurate?

Michael Krupnicki [: 00:30:15

I've done similar analysis like that. What a lot of people don't take into consideration, and maybe it was taken into consideration with that is opportunity cost. There's a lot of programs around where you can get enough training and welding in six or eight months to get that entry level job for let's just say 10 grand or $15,000 as a total investment, let's just call it a half a year. Six months for round numbers to get that bachelor's degree is an additional three and a half years of opportunity costs that you're not working. So if that welder can make 50 grand again just for round numbers, three and a half years, there's $175,000 in opportunity costs missed by the bachelor's degree person. And by then they're not making 50 grand anymore. They've been welding for three and a half years, they might be making 70 or 75. If you give me a whiteboard and a marker, I can show a parent that return on investment.

Michael Krupnicki [: 00:31:16

And I'm not saying that maybe 10 years down the road or 15 years down the road, a bachelor's or a master's might not become more lucrative, but it's not in the first five years. And again, it depends on what that degree is. I mean, engineers tend to make good money coming right out of school. Accountants, lawyers, you know, it depends on the specific field. I got into this discussion on a news interview earlier in the year. I don't see it as a binary decision either. Again, the recommendations I make to young people is you want to be a welder, fantastic. We need you.

Michael Krupnicki [: 00:31:51

You'll never stand in an unemployment line. Get that welding degree, get yourself settled, get a vehicle, get an apartment, find your partner, whatever, get settled and then go back to school evenings. Maybe get an associate's degree in business or get an associate's degree in engineering or mechatronics or something else related to prepare yourself for opportunities that are going to come your way in the future. It's not just, you know, college or nothing. It's what comes first. And I believe those folks that do that, that I like to use the phrase sharpen their saw, that continuing their education and sharpening their saw throughout life, that's the ticket. You're doing what you love to do, but you're keeping yourself on the leading edge.

Andrew Brown [: 00:32:37

I don't know. I went to college and it came out more confused out of school than I was in school. But that was my take.

Michael Krupnicki [: 00:32:41

How many kids go get a four year degree in something specific and then that's not even what their career is at?

Andrew Brown [: 00:32:46

Of course. And you put a lot of money into it. Look, there's an argument either way. I was just kind of told to go to college and I'm not against college at all. It's got to be for the right person. I wanted to circle back to what I hear on social media because again, I would love to do the myth bust this. A lot of people also are saying, I am a welder, but I don't have the experience. And these places are asking for three or four years of experience.

Andrew Brown [: 00:33:13

I don't have the experience. I want to get the experience. I can't even get into the shop or this program. What do they do if they don't have the experience? But you need the experience.

Michael Krupnicki [: 00:33:24

That's always been frustrating, right, for people coming out of school. And everybody wants experience. Companies that insist on that are going to have trouble finding people unless they're going to pay a lot of money because they're going to have to pay for somebody with that experience. So one of the things that I recommend to schools as I travel around is as a way for young people to break through, that is make sure that as part of your curriculum that you are providing them the opportunity to pass some American Welding Society welding tests so that they can go into that employer and say, look, even though I don't have any experience in the workforce, I have shown that I have the skills to pass these welding tests. I did them at school. I have my gear in my vehicle. Can I go back in the shop and show you that I can do this? You know another way? What I've been encouraging schools to do is find a way to give these students some awards based on their performance in the soft skills. Something where they can hand that employer a document that Says, I showed up every day, I was sober every day.

Michael Krupnicki [: 00:34:38

I put my phone away and focused every day. I was a good teammate and I was teachable every day. And I'm reliable because that's when employers come in wanting to hire my students. The last question is, who's your best welder? They want to know who's going to show up. So anything that a young person can do to go in there and say, look, I understand you want this experience. I went to school, I learned how to weld, I passed tests, and I'm very reliable. Can I have a chance? Somebody will take a chance on them. It might not be the first person or the first company.

Michael Krupnicki [: 00:35:16

They may have to try a few. But again, it's not like 10 or 15 years ago where companies could just hold fast on that. They need bodies. So if that person can again convince them I'm teachable, I'm reliable, I will show up, I'm grown up, I've got these soft skills. To me, that's the ticket.

Andrew Brown [: 00:35:36

The soft skill aspect, yeah, it's one thing to have the technical skills, but the soft skill aspect, you could be the best welder in the world. But if you don't show up on the job, if you're constantly on your phone, these are just little things, but like, it's a problem, it's an issue. So if you want to be well respected, if you want to get a job, you need to have the soft skills. You need to work on that side. From an owner's perspective, that's extremely, extremely important. Now, the tools of the trade. Michael, this has been an amazing conversation, but before we leave the studio today, what is one of your special tools of the trade advice you would give someone just starting out as a welder today? What can they do? What's some steps? I know you touched upon it, but I would like to go a little bit more in depth.

Michael Krupnicki [: 00:36:27

I can't emphasize enough where if you're going to be a welder, you, you want to call yourself a professional, you should be a member of a professional organization. And the professional organization for welding in the United States is the American Welding Society. Www.aws. join. It's free if you're a student. It's minimal amount if you're recently out of school. But just being a member is not enough. You've got to reach out, you've got to find out who the section leaders are.

Michael Krupnicki [: 00:36:57

You need to go to some of those events and hopefully begin volunteering, getting involved, getting to know people and sharing your skills. And your gifts. I started off, my father got me involved at AWS when I was 21 years old. And now here I am as the President 39 years later. I would have had, I believe, a decent career without AWS. But by being an active volunteer for these 39 years has turbocharged my career and opened up possibilities that would have never, ever happened. So that's nugget number one, don't just become a member, get involved. Number two, don't consider your education over, you know, in terms of welding.

Michael Krupnicki [: 00:37:43

Whether it's, you know, you're a YouTube type person or there's other ways you can learn hands on locally, keep seeking that out, keep learning all that you can. And I'd love to have you go to your community college. Leadership courses, management courses, public speaking courses. Take one a semester. It doesn't even have to be for a degree if you don't want to commit to that. But just keep growing. The time to get ready for your promotion isn't when it becomes available. And then my last one is along that line of education.

Michael Krupnicki [: 00:38:20

I have several degrees and had took lots of courses over my lifetime. If I could have only taken one, Andrew, the one that I would have kept, Personal money management. That class that I took at age 19 or 20 was the game changer in my life. It taught me how to save, how to invest, how to buy insurance, how to use credit properly, all those things that young people need to know. We tend to focus on how much am I making an hour or how much am I making a year. We need to focus on how much you're saving and putting away for the future. So I strongly encourage everybody, whether you're still in school or wherever you're at, every community college has that course. Go and take it and learn it and start putting away for your future.

Michael Krupnicki [: 00:39:13

That'll make for a much more comfortable life later on. So those are my three nuggets for you, pal, and for your listeners.

Andrew Brown [: 00:39:19

Yeah, and that's great advice, you know, especially the money side. And that's not always taught in school growing up. A lot of that is also taught at home as well. But that, I mean, it's not how much you make, it's how much you save and put away. But I do like these steps of at least joining AWS as one step and networking, volunteering, you know, getting involved. Never feel stagnant. Just keep learning different skills if you have to take different certifications. All great advice.

Andrew Brown [: 00:39:49

Michael. If people want to learn more about AWS or a little bit more about you where do they go find information and out there.

Michael Krupnicki [: 00:39:57

The aws website is aws.org I am happy to speak with any one of your listeners. My email address is krupnicki K R U P N I c k I.awsgmail com krupnicke.awsgmail.com Reach out to me. I will respond within 36 hours. I'm happy to talk to young people, established people, employers, anybody that would like some of the perspective of the current AWS president that's been around this industry since 1982.

Andrew Brown [: 00:40:34

I'm happy to share Great advice. We'll have all the information in the show, notes for people to you know, your email and your information. Thank you so much for being on the show today, Andrew.

Michael Krupnicki [: 00:40:44

I really appreciate you you inviting me on. I've enjoyed this. I hope I've added value and again, I'm a big fan of yours and thank you for doing what you do. Don't underestimate the impact that you're having and we need more of this.

Andrew Brown [: 00:40:56

So thank you and thank you to our listeners. If you're looking for a dynamic keynote speaker to elevate your next event, head over to andrewbrown.net and review some of my speaking trades awareness, career exploration, advocacy and addressing the trade shortage. Don't forget to subscribe to the podcast so you never miss a another episode. We'll see you next time. Thanks for listening to the Lost Art.

Michael Krupnicki [: 00:41:23

Of the Skilled Trades. Visit us@AndrewBrown.net for more resources and tips.

Andrew Brown [: 00:41:28

Join us next time for real stories.

Michael Krupnicki [: 00:41:30

And meaningful initiatives as we celebrate our men and women in the skilled trades.

Andrew Brown [: 00:41:35

And shape the future together.