Skilled Trades Careers & Workforce Development with Boyd Worsham

Boyd Worsham [: 00:00:00

I don't think you can be good at many things in this world that you don't enjoy or really have passion for, but if you do, and you see it in these students, right, they're there, they're passionate, they love the work. And that's why you want to keep them in the industry, so that they can have that joy in their work for the rest of their lives, that this is the right calling for them.

Andrew Brown [: 00:00:22

Hi, I'm Andrew Brown. You're listening to the Lost Star of the Skilled Trades Podcast, a show that shines the spotlight on careers in the skilled trades that are high paying, honorable, rewarding and fulfilling. The trades are the backbone of the economy that keep us running, and without them, our world would cease to exist. Today we have a special guest, Boyd Worsham, CEO and president of nccer. Welcome, Boyd, to the podcast.

Boyd Worsham [: 00:00:58

Thank you, Andrew. Glad to be here.

Andrew Brown [: 00:01:00

I was at the SkillsUSA championship down in Atlanta over the summer. And for the people that don't know that are listening, that's where 6,000 kids compete against each other in carpentry and welding, robotics, electrical and other trades. And the amount of energy that was under one roof was absolutely unreal. And I was just watching. That's the next generation of skilled tradesmen and women. When they win, it's almost like a badge of honor. And they hang those flags up at trade schools to display that they won this competition and you were a part of that competition at one point.

Boyd Worsham [: 00:01:40

It's a great event, Andrew, and I'm so glad to see you there. The SkillsUSA, I had participated in it when I was in High School. SkillsUSA was known as VICA, then Vocational Industrial Clubs of America. Few years after that, many years ago, they actually changed their name to SkillsUSA. And about 15 years ago, I was asked to run the carpentry competition at SkillsUSA's National Leadership and Skills Conference is the official name of the event. They approached me and asked me if I'd run the carpentry competition, which, glad to do, you know, took it on with vigor and excitement and have done that for the last 15 competitions and plan to continue to do it for quite a bit longer. But it was just amazingly exciting, fun piece of my life for the last 15 years. So every year we go to Atlanta.

Boyd Worsham [: 00:02:27

We have seven, usually about 70 to 75 competitors in the carpentry competition. 45 of those are high school competitors who have won at the state level, going through a regional competition to a state competition and on to nationals where we're with them, and they're joining us at nationals of those, like I said, 45 high school students and about 30 community college students that have won at the state level competing on the floor building the same project. And then it's a gold, silver, bronze medal award. So each community college level or post secondary and at the secondary level, high school, they're getting gold, silver and bronze medals for the first, second and third place in each of those categories. Unbelievably exciting. SkillsUSA does a phenomenal job across this country on career and technical education events and chapters across the country. So it's more than just the one week in Atlanta, but it culminates in that, for me, so memorable day. A day that all of those competitors will remember for the rest of their lives.

Boyd Worsham [: 00:03:27

And I am honored that NCCR and myself get to participate in that. We are making a difference in people's lives that they will always remember. That's just cool.

Andrew Brown [: 00:03:36

I was watching them and I know that they take a blueprint. I don't know if it's over one or two days and I believe they have a couple of people in their group.

Boyd Worsham [: 00:03:44

No, there's a different competition, teams competition. They have a mason, a carpenter, an electrician and a plumber that are doing that. That's a two day project. Ours is one full day of competition. Eight hour day for carpenter.

Andrew Brown [: 00:03:57

You're a carpenter and obviously you can build anything that you want. I look at it in awe and I say, wow, look what they can do with their hands. They can pretty much build anything. And they are getting the recognition that they don't always get, especially in the trades. Because I look at this as the Olympics and you're getting either a gold, silver or bronze medal for the work that you're doing. It must be so exciting to win a competition like that.

Boyd Worsham [: 00:04:25

Yeah, it is extremely exciting to win. I think it's exciting just to be there. They literally are all champions because they've already won at the state level. Right. So now they're at a national competition. I mean, the ones that win are ecstatic when you hang medals on them on Friday night after the competition. The main thing, Andrew, for me is making sure it's a wonderful day for every competitor because, you know, you never know who's going to have the better day. Right.

Boyd Worsham [: 00:04:48

You never know who's going to make that one mistake that cost them the competition that they'll never make us get in their life. Right. When you were first asking the question, you mentioned that these are our future craft professionals of the country, craft workers, craft Professionals. The reality is they're, it's bigger than that. They have shown ambition, they have shown courage to compete. Right. Most of those folks who are there, even if it isn't their day to win, will move on to leadership roles in their lives, hopefully in the construction industry. They stay with us and we want them to.

Boyd Worsham [: 00:05:17

But either way, they displayed the courage and ambition that it takes to be a leader. You know, we identified 75 up and comers at that event and believe it or not, Andrew, some of them come back the next year because they can compete throughout their high school career and then move into community college and continue to compete. I see some of them for three years and it's really exciting because they come back and I remember, you know, I don't remember their state or their number, but I remember their face. And I remember that the year before I had the privilege of touching that person's life. And they're back and they look at me differently when they walk in that door with a connection in their eyes. That's really, really fun for somebody like me to experience.

Andrew Brown [: 00:05:59

When you're looking at the work that's being done, what do you see that this one or two kids really has that magical ability to build things. What are those skill sets that you see?

Boyd Worsham [: 00:06:12

I think the planning piece of it, how they attack the project, right? Because we give them the drawings for about 20 minutes or 30 minutes a day before the competition just to look at. We take them back up, they don't get to keep them. They'll get to take notes, take pictures or any of that. They just literally get to study the plans. And the ones who come in have really thought about how they're going to execute the project and start building it in the most efficient sequence are typically the ones that win, right. They're not wasting any time. They're not backing up and doing things twice or in the wrong sequence. So it's really that planning piece of it being meticulous about the details, about really looking at every note on the drawing, reading every word on the drawing, thinking about that and executing in a really efficient manner.

Boyd Worsham [: 00:06:58

And then just the ability to handle the tools, to truly handle those tools, to make nice cuts, to know what's in their toolbox and how to use it.

Andrew Brown [: 00:07:05

Do you think that skill set can be taught with the handful of kids that are really excel. Is that a natural talent or that was just good teaching. Where do you think that comes from?

Boyd Worsham [: 00:07:17

I think it can be taught absolutely. It was taught to me. I do think there is a Natural appreciation of it. And you have to have passion for it, Right. I don't think you can be good at many things in this world that you don't enjoy or really have passion for, but if you do, and you see it in these students, right, they're there, they're passionate, they love the work. And that's why you want to keep them in the industry, so that they can have that joy in their work for the rest of their lives, that this is the right calling for them. So I think it's really about passion and intelligence. When you build things, you have to be able to look at those things and understand how they're going to fit together.

Boyd Worsham [: 00:07:55

Construction is very logical. When you look at how things are assembled and how things are put together. Pretty logical. And when you get that logic and that clicks in your brain, which it does with these young people, things just kind of come together, right? It's like, okay, I don't have to have every bit of it on a drawing. I know how this is going to work and how it has to work. And you get it in builders all the time. When you meet certain people in this industry and you have a conversation with them, you know, you're talking. You're both seeing the same picture, right? That mental picture is the same for both of you when you're talking about how things go together.

Boyd Worsham [: 00:08:28

Because it is a very logical industry that things make sense in. Right? That's why I love it so much, is standing here in my office in Florida. But I know what's above the ceiling. I know how this building was built, how everything went together. If I took the drywall down, I know what's going to be behind the walls, how it went together structurally, and from a mechanical, electrical and plumbing perspective. Right. And what I'm seeing are the finishes, the obvious piece. But the logic of construction is something that I find very, very comforting, very easy to comprehend, as I think most of those students that show up @SkillsUSA have already started to develop that and obviously will continue to develop throughout their construction career.

Andrew Brown [: 00:09:08

Most people, when they look back on their careers, they can attribute a lot of their success to mentorship. And some people in the trades can go back and say, I had a teacher when I was younger, when I was just coming up, that really made a difference in my life. And I believe that you had somebody in your life, a teacher that played a crucial role when you were coming up. Can you tell us a little bit about that leadership or mentorship that you had?

Boyd Worsham [: 00:09:34

In high school, I took carpentry for actually four years, ninth through the 12th grade. Ninth grade was a one hour program, pretty simple. Moved into a two hour program in the 10th grade where we actually started building some things, larger structures. By 11th and 12th grade year, junior senior year in high school, I had an amazing carpentry instructor. I was in this class for three hours each day. And we built portable school buildings, portable classrooms I should say. These are still all over my county I live in, you know, over in Play County, Florida, over in the northeast corner of the state, just south of Jacksonville. And that county still has many of these portable classrooms that our carpentry program built.

Boyd Worsham [: 00:10:12

And we built four of these. They were 28 by 52, 28ft by 52 foot square rectangular classrooms with a dutch hip roof. And they moved them out and put them on the campuses every quarter at teachers planning day. And we built more and more. But my carpentry instructor was an ex superintendent and an owner's rep for some major industrial companies. Andrew, the cool thing about him was he treated us like adults that were there to learn how to make a living. You know, one thing the man never told me, Andrew, was he was teaching me to be a carpenter. He told me he was teaching me to understand the business of construction.

Boyd Worsham [: 00:10:46

And carpentry was the path for me to get there. And I think that's really important because in my role at the national center for Construction Education and Research, nccr, I want to make that difference in other people's lives. And the way to do that is not to just talk about a trade, right? Not to just talk about, I'm going to learn to be a carpenter, a plumber, electrician, whatever it may be, for the rest of my life. I will always retain that knowledge. I will always be a carpenter. But what my carpentry instructor instilled in me is that I'm moving into an industry that has unlimited potential. You know, come in, learn carpentry. That's your undergraduate degree, if you want be able to feed your family forever with that.

Boyd Worsham [: 00:11:25

But it's a journey to a major industry and a wonderful business to actually learn the business component of it and actually learn leadership and how to run projects and run businesses. And then that's the way he talked to us about it. You know, carpentry is what I'm going to teach you today. This is just what opens the door to a wonderful career. And I stress that because I think today we spend too much time talking to young people about the craft and not enough about the industry and the opportunity and so, you know, I try to talk to my team here at NCCR and say, let's make sure we're really focusing on what a wonderful industry this is, what the wonderful opportunities that somebody can have over a career in this industry. I mean, mine's been long and I've had a wonderful career, but it's really great. And I think the other thing, Andy, is really important is being able to build things gives you confidence to do other things, right? I mean, it gives you this sense of your abilities to do something with your hands, with your mind, you know, with your energy and your strength to motivate others to go out and build these fabulous structures that, as you said in your opening, this country does not exist without. It's bigger than just our economy.

Boyd Worsham [: 00:12:39

It's our national defense, it's our national security. It's everything. Right? You know, you go to any conversation about the future of this country, you can turn it into a construction conference. Because I got news for you. And dude, you already know it. The rest of the world may not be as clear. We're nothing without construction. We can't defend this country, we can't grow the economy, we can't do anything without the construction industry support that I.

Andrew Brown [: 00:13:04

Find when kids that are in school today don't necessarily get all the information that they need, even if they are good with their hands. And I always feel that career expiration in schools can be tweaked. And I had this conversation yesterday with a teacher who had a student in her class and the student came to her and said, I want to be an electrician. I mean, he just came up to her and said, I want to work with my aunt. She, she looked at him like, oh, maybe you want to be an engineer. No, I want to be an electrician. And she didn't know what to do with him. And I find that this happens quite often when kids are sitting in guidance counselors and they're looking at college, they're looking at maybe a trades path.

Andrew Brown [: 00:13:50

Are these conversations, is there enough information giving kids the ability to navigate and know where to go and how to get that skillset? What are you seeing?

Boyd Worsham [: 00:14:02

The simple answer to that is no, there's not enough awareness. And quite frankly, you know, she just, you know, displayed that. Right. The reality is industry has done this to themselves. The construction industry is kind of a quiet industry, right? We just out executing the work, doing the work, worried about the next job, worried about finishing the one we've got, figuring out how do we get paid. All those other things businesses have to do. And we haven't done enough just talk about how great this industry is. Nor have we given the resources to the guidance counselors and the other career counselors to help them understand it.

Boyd Worsham [: 00:14:36

So what do they do? They default to, you know, sending people to college because that's what they know. And the colleges have given them tons of material, tons of collateral to use to have those conversations. We have not done that well in our industry and we still don't do it as well as we should. NCCR is trying to do some things about that. We created our career starter tool that is out there technology tool for helping students to connect with jobs, careers in the construction industry in their area so that they can register on career starter. Contractors can pick them up there. New entrants coming in who want to go to work. Because we know Andrew, not most, but we don't know the exact statistic but let's just say at least half of the people that come to our industry are coming in because they know somebody in the industry, family member, neighbor, somebody gets them connected.

Boyd Worsham [: 00:15:25

Because I think a lot of students would join, but they don't quite know how to join the industry. But they don't quite know how to make that connection. We haven't made that as easy as we want. I think the way to solve for that, the way we did in my former career or employment was at the company called the Haskell Company in Jacksonville, Florida. We went into the high school just like Mr. Haskell hired me out of high school out of a carpentry program, you know, 40 some odd years ago. That company still does that today and they have an annual banquet for all the career and technical education construction students in that county. Seniors are offered jobs and they go to work for that company and they quite frankly many of them spend their career there.

Boyd Worsham [: 00:16:04

I spent 38 years there, be honest, before I came to NCCR. So we know it works. We got to get contractors connected with their local career and technical education programs to make those connections. If not, we're going to lose students. A really interesting statistic on this is four or five year old data now. But on average this country has about 325,000 students in secondary and post secondary program with a focus on career design or construction related CTE program means they're taking at least two courses in that field in their school. 325,000 students who have shown interest in construction or design. Only about 22% of those students come to industry.

Boyd Worsham [: 00:16:47

So we're getting 75,000 or 80,000 students when we should be getting at least several hundred, even if all of them don't want to come into construction, we should be getting huge numbers. And we're not, Andrew. We're just flat missing that connection of those students coming out of those programs and connecting them with jobs. And that's why we built Career Starter as a solution to bridge that. And we're also working on requirements now and going to go out and try to find some funding to build a technology solution to connect instructors in these programs with contractors. So there's a way. Everybody's waiting on the other guy to call up, and yet we're not making those connections. And we're missing literally hundreds of thousands of students a year, but maybe 100,000 but significant numbers of students a year who should be finding homes and careers starting with jobs in our industry.

Boyd Worsham [: 00:17:38

And that's not happening as well as it should. We absolutely need to solve for that.

Andrew Brown [: 00:17:42

I think it's getting better. I do feel that the old adage is still there, that people still look at a trade construction as less than. And I only say that because it's what I see mostly on social media when I'm pounding about the awareness about the trades that you won't make as much money. You're going. When you're older, you're going to have all these ailments, whatever it may be. There's always seems to be pushback, but that just seems to be amplified throughout the years. And they just keep hearing this and it's not necessarily true. That's why I try to push the benefits of the trades and what's possible.

Andrew Brown [: 00:18:22

It's a viable career option. You can climb the ladder of success. And Today, with over 40% retiring over the next five or 10 years, you really have the opportunity to do very well. I know in my neighborhood, people always looking for electricians, they're always looking for plumbers, and everybody's always trying to trade names around. That list is getting so much smaller. It's also getting more expensive. There's just less and less people that are coming through. And that's my concern of if we're not proactive, we're reactive, it's going to get worse and worse.

Andrew Brown [: 00:18:57

But to go back to your about guidance counselors not sharing the opportunities with kids because again, I don't know how many guidance counselors are saying, wow, you're really good with your hands. You know, you can be a plumber or you can be an electrician. I don't think that's truly having that conversation. But on our foundation called the Skilled Trades Advisory Counselor. Our mission is to recruit, retain and to advocate for the trades. So we're working with industry leaders, educators working on programs to get the messaging out to kids. And we do have one member on our board. Her name is Kate Simeno and she works for Explore the Trades.

Andrew Brown [: 00:19:35

And Explore the Trades sends out these poster kits. And these poster kits are sharing what an H vac path looks like, what an electrical path looks like. And those posters are hanging up in 20% of schools around the country. So when somebody comes into the guidance counselor, there's college, college, college. Oh, wait a second, what's this trades thing? And then at least opens up a conversation.

Boyd Worsham [: 00:20:01

I think you're right. You're absolutely correct in everything you said, Andrew. I agree with that. I'm really glad to hear they're making that kind of progress or at least that that organization is, because it is getting better. It really is. And we need to look at this thing, I think even bigger than the trades. Right. We need to think about it as a whole industry and trades being the entrance into that industry for many, as it was for me.

Boyd Worsham [: 00:20:21

I will always be a carpenter. You know, I have an mba, but if I was going to hang a shingle out, it would be master carpenter, not master business person. Right. Master carpenter. And I'm really proud of that. But there's nothing that says that's where our career ends. It can. If we want to stay a carpenter forever, that's noble.

Boyd Worsham [: 00:20:38

Wonderful work. I've got a best friend I've been Buddy's with for 51 years now. Still a carpenter, loves doing that. And that's what makes him happy, right? I wanted to run projects, so I moved on up through the ranks. Foreman, assistant superintendent, superintendent and beyond. But it's up to each one of us. And the beauty of it is this. We need to think of crafts as an entry into.

Boyd Worsham [: 00:20:58

In my opinion, we should never discourage a student from going to college. Get whatever degree you choose, whether it's engineering, construction, management, whatever. But come back to construction or stay in construction during your summers and learn this. Because this is a. The second largest industry in the world is construction without the supplier side. So just the building side, you know, if you want to go get a college degree, great. We're not going to change graduation rates in this country one way or the other. We haven't in 50 years.

Boyd Worsham [: 00:21:27

So if somebody wants to go to school for a year, go to school for four years. We need really smart, well educated people to build these projects. There Is nothing simple about construction. It takes really smart people to do it. So start off on your tools, learn a trade, grow through your organization and grow in the industry into superintendent or beyond, or go to college, get a degree and come out and help us in that way. We need those too. This industry is so big, Andrew. There's so much opportunity.

Boyd Worsham [: 00:21:55

We need all the smart people we can get into this business in it. My goal in life would be to make sure that construction is the career of choice for all. Now I say that only, I mean all who have the right interest, aptitude and skills for it. Right. Those that want it and it serves well for their lives too. But at the end of the day, if we could do one big thing in this industry that actually makes the difference for the long run so we can don't have to push the rope uphill trying to solve our workforce development shortages, our workforce shortage issues, it would be to make sure that construction is the career choice for all. You know, like I said, there's caveats to that. But that's the big thing that I would love to see us accomplish as an industry.

Andrew Brown [: 00:22:39

Everybody in the trades has different aspirations. You mentioned your friend who stayed as a carpenter. You went off to Haskell and you built a career and went to nccer. Everyone's got a different path. It depends what you want. Some people just want to keep moving up that ladder and some people just want to stay consistent. It depends who you are. I'm thinking of a story when I was at a college called the Williamson College of the Trades, which is out in Pennsylvania.

Andrew Brown [: 00:23:08

They have 250, 300 students. It's a free technical school. They take kids who are a little bit less fortunate and they give them a full ride, tuition free. It cost a hundred thousand dollars a student. They're at school for three years and they learn a trade and they come out with no debt. They come out with a job. They have 150 of some of the largest companies that come to fight for these 80 something kids. It is unbelievable.

Andrew Brown [: 00:23:35

I met one of these kids who was in carpentry and I went into the carpentry department and it was so much excitement going on there and he lit up. But he was telling me, you know what, I don't just want to be a carpenter, I want to own my own business one day. And I was like, wow, how do you know this? I didn't know this when I was your age. He's aspiring to that. I feel that comes from within. So it's not for everybody. But if you want to learn that skill set, that's a different skill set. Being out in the field is one thing.

Andrew Brown [: 00:24:03

Owning a business, running a business is another. Can you give any advice to somebody who is thinking about maybe going into their own business? If you're someone in the field, yes, you can build things, but from the business side, it's very different. Any advice that you can give to the audience?

Boyd Worsham [: 00:24:21

Yeah, you're absolutely right. It is different. Right. The key is understanding the business of construction. I say that very carefully. Right. It's not just the construction business, it's the business of construction. Because construction is a major business in and of itself that comes with risk and it comes with rewards.

Boyd Worsham [: 00:24:37

Just like every other business. Ours can be a little more extreme and a little more dramatic because like I said, the risk are huge and the rewards are huge as well. So I think it's really understanding the risk that you take on in your business and make sure you know how to manage those risks and you know how to. How to execute the work and have the resources to execute the work that you're willing to take on. Because what always worries me is if somebody starting a business or if they're moving up in our industry to a new role, that if for some reason that particular project doesn't go well, for whatever reason, that we'll lose them from this industry. And I believe that there are many people who this is the absolute right industry for, just like it is for me. So I want to make sure that people do things at the right scale and understanding the risk associated with what they do to be able to manage that work. Right.

Boyd Worsham [: 00:25:32

You know, you could jump on the biggest, baddest project around and fail miserably and exit this industry and possibly miss the opportunity of a lifetime, you know, in the future. So I think it's really understanding and really evaluating what you're capable of and making sure those first projects match your capabilities as an organization or as an individual.

Andrew Brown [: 00:25:54

I also think it's good to get around or at least work for another company just to get a feeling for. I'm sure the amount of experience that you learned working at Haskell is second to none. But to go to just start a business, there's a lot more that is involved in that. And I always am a believer of joining some type of group of some sort. For me, it's a group called Vistage, where it's other CEOs, we meet once a month, we talk about business, There's a speaker, we're working on the business instead of in the business. And I learn things every single time I go there. And I always feel that it's not what you know, it's what you don't know hurts you and what hurts you, you know, it's one of those things. So it's good to be open and honest and ask for help along your journey and to get advice from really people who have succeeded.

Andrew Brown [: 00:26:41

Someone in construction has been successful or someone in a trade or welding or plumbing has already done it. Get around those people who are successful who are like minded. The mind shift change for somebody is immense. If you get around the right person.

Boyd Worsham [: 00:26:57

No, that's perfect. Andrew. I think you said it exactly right. It is about how do you make sure you leverage resources, you know, other people who have done it. Like I said, it's not. And I, I do a lot of peer calls. I have other CEOs who are in similar businesses or even in same business model but different industries that I do peer calls with where you can talk openly about what's happening in their world, what have they learned, how does that compare to what you're dealing with? And I find those to be extremely valuable to help me to stay to look at things from a different perspective because you can really get bogged down in your own business if you're not careful.

Andrew Brown [: 00:27:32

I wanted to roll back quickly to your time when you started in carpentry and you were in high school. Was your father in a trade? Where did it come from that you knew you wanted to do this? Or did you just kind of stumble upon this when you were in school?

Boyd Worsham [: 00:27:45

My grandfather on my mother's side was an electrical contractor and I saw him a lot, but they didn't live right with us. My dad actually was air traffic controller. So I think as a young kid, I mean a young kid like 6, 7 years old, I remember building, knocking together the first little table I ever built out of a bunch of scrap wood I got from a house they were building behind our house. So I actually physically remember building this little table. And under some reason I just always knew I would be a builder. Andrew, then I think the carpentry programs and the shop classes in school really brought that out. I mean, I made excellent grades in school and I was in all the advanced academic classes. But I really loved my carpentry class.

Boyd Worsham [: 00:28:25

You know, I really loved the sense of accomplishment and I really loved the leadership that came with it. I learned to lead through my carpentry, my high school carpentry class. As I said, we built the portable school buildings, somebody was going to rise up as the foreman, the leader role. And I didn't, you know, didn't consciously go out to do that. I did that and before long I was kind of running the crew there. There were 20 of us in the class and they were all good builders. And most of them, Andrew, stayed in the industry and became leaders in the industry. That teacher did have that effect on us.

Boyd Worsham [: 00:28:57

I just always knew I would be a builder. I thought the pinnacle of my career would be a superintendent on major projects. And in many ways, that has been the pinnacle of my career. You know, I'm one of those people who was born and built to be a superintendent. I know how to run projects. I know how to deal with people on projects and get things done. I love the sense of urgency, the problem solving, all those things. Obviously, I've moved on and who knows what will happen when I retire from here.

Boyd Worsham [: 00:29:22

I might go back as a superintendent. I love that work. But it was just a natural thing for me and somehow I just realized it, I think, by building little things and then feeling the accomplishment of that.

Andrew Brown [: 00:29:31

Can you touch upon and there's some pushback here and I'd like to get your thoughts on wages in carpentry. Have you seen that go up over time and can you give any statistics?

Boyd Worsham [: 00:29:44

Yeah, we see wages going up over time. They, like every other wage, haven't really kept up with inflation these last couple years. That's been an anomaly. Right. And it settled back down years ago. I used to think that we needed to do everything we could to drive wages up, you know, because obviously not because I was a carpenter, but even for the guys who work for me. And there is a balance there where you can run, wages continue to climb, and they should because cost of living continues to climb. But there's a point where wages go too high.

Boyd Worsham [: 00:30:10

Projects simply won't get built. They won't be feasible to build projects. Right. So there has to be a balance of how does an owner get value for their money when they build a project and the cost of construction, and also fair, equitable and growing compensation for those who do the work. The best balance is reached, in my opinion, through training and education, where we increase the value of the craft professionals and the supervisory teams on projects so that they are able to bring more value to the project with less people when appropriate, and be able to deliver more value for the customer to keep costs affordable for a client to be able to build their project, manufacture their plan or conduct their business. But we have to have a balance There if wages just continue to climb because we're just throwing money at the workforce shortage issue, eventually we're going to kill projects that just won't happen. Because labor is the largest variable on any project by far, right? We can price the material. We know what it's going to cost us to do that.

Boyd Worsham [: 00:31:11

The risk is in labor. And so you have to have proficient, well trained labor who can deliver a project and meet the budget to do that, or companies won't survive or projects won't happen. So it's really the ultimate balancing act, right? How do we make sure people in our industry are making are being fairly compensated for the wonderful work they do? How do we make sure those people are bringing value to a customer, an owner, and to their employer so everybody has a chance to make their fair and equitable piece of the project. So, you know, percentage wise, they continue to climb, you know, and it varies by every different areas of the country. You know, carpenter wages are, you know, 50 bucks an hour in some places, 30 and others, but it still is relative to the cost of living in the area. But what I will assure your listeners, those that go into the trades, can make a very comfortable living, get good benefits from a reputable employer, and basically have a sense of accomplishment in the work they do that can create a great quality of life for those people in the industry and for their families. And that's what we're all looking for, right? And there's upward mobility, you know, in your career that helps you to be able to make more money, move up in the organization, bring more value as a foreman or superintendent, superintendent, whatever those roles are, right? And earn more money and higher compensation that way so that you're bringing greater value and being rewarded for that value.

Andrew Brown [: 00:32:34

I've been on both sides of that as a business owner and obviously an employee, I understand each side. You know, I understand the business perspective. And running a business, it has to be profitable. Other side of being the employee, you want as much, obviously value you can get from the organization, but you also want compensation. Behind that, you have to keep increasing your knowledge base, creating more value to keep supporting the lift in wages. I always know that that is sometimes a pushback for a lot of kids in the trades that they look at different options and they say, I can make this doing the trades, but hey, I can do this thing over here. I can be in social media and other things. They're being swayed from the tech side.

Andrew Brown [: 00:33:14

You know, a programming job, a coding job. There's a lot of opportunities today versus years back. So there is that challenge of trying to get kids into the trades with all these other opportunities that are available.

Boyd Worsham [: 00:33:26

You're right, Andrew. There is competition there. The one thing I think that we at our industry has going forward in that area is just the stability of the jobs and they really are stable. Nobody's going to, you know, AI is not going to take over building buildings. You know, with some of those other things, there is risk that those jobs can be performed differently by different means and different technologies than what you may have thought they would be when you first got into that career. The key is finding something you love, you know what I mean? And really loving what you do. You know, I've talked to you enough to know that you love what you do. I love what I do.

Boyd Worsham [: 00:34:01

I get up every morning excited to go do it. And now it's not building buildings anymore, it's not running projects. But what it is, Andrew, is same thing you're trying to accomplish. The legacy we have in life, it's got to be people, right? Legacy is not projects. Legacy is not material things. Legacy is how do we impact people. You're trying to do it at a large scale through your show and your messaging that you're able to get out, which is super cool and super important. I have the privilege of trying to do it through NCCR and having done it in my career as a leader to make the impact those people who I was fortunate enough to be able to impact on the projects in my organization.

Boyd Worsham [: 00:34:40

We're very blessed in that we get to impact people's lives in a positive way. But at the end of the day, it's because we love doing what we do that we're able to do that. And I want to make sure anybody out there who is, wants to be in a construction career understands that. Many don't understand it. People don't choose something they don't know. So we've got to, as you said earlier, we've got to get higher awareness of that. But if they want to be in this industry, I want to make sure we have a way to help them get in the industry and to learn as much as they can, expeditiously as they can to bring value to themselves and their whoever they work for. If we do that for all who need this, you know, need this career and those that it is the right career for, we can solve this workforce problem.

Boyd Worsham [: 00:35:28

It's really nothing more than a supply chain problem. And the construction industry solves those all the time. For some reason we struggle with this one because we're all trying to do it in a fragmented, piecemeal way. Right? But if this industry would rally around this and look at it as a supply chain issue and realize there are millions of people in this country, not all of them are high school kids, some of them are mid career people in service industry jobs that we could bring better jobs to and make a positive difference in their lives if we could rally around getting those people in this industry and helping them to be successful, we can solve it. We just have to do that as an industry. Many companies are doing it individually and doing quite well at it. And there are, you know, examples of real centers of excellence on that. But there's also more people working independently than there are working, you know, collectively at it.

Boyd Worsham [: 00:36:18

You know, I hope your message and your, your viewers can kind of think about how do we do this together? Andrew, it's the ultimate win win, right? Think about this. Good for the individual, it's good for the company they work for, you know, for the client and the owner of the project. It's good for our communities, it's good for our society. I mean, you know, this win, win for everybody involved. If this industry is the right spot for those individuals, let's make sure they know about it and get a chance at it.

Andrew Brown [: 00:36:43

We both want the same thing. At the end of the day, each of us are doing our different things. And I look at the Mike Rose out there, you know, who is giving back and sharing what the possibilities are in the trades and you're sharing it through NCCR and the experiences that you have had. I am doing it through the podcast and doing it through social media and speaking on stage. And I always say if I could change one person's perspective on the trades, if it's a young adult that was thinking maybe college, but hey, there's this trades thing and they maybe go in that direction or it's a parent that said to their child, you know, that's not right for you. And then they absorb the information, some of the content that I put out and they say, wait, wait, wait, maybe that is really good for my kid. That's a win for me. It just takes one.

Andrew Brown [: 00:37:31

And it's all about the impact and it's about legacy. It's just all about giving back to society and trying to solve this skilled trade shortage, which, like you said, everyone's kind of doing their own thing. It's fragmented. But if we come together as a whole, I think we can do a much better job. Is there anything else at nccer that you're doing. And just for the people who don't know what NCCER is all about. Can you just explain a little bit about the organization?

Boyd Worsham [: 00:38:00

Yeah, no, I'd love to. Thank you for the opportunity to do so. Just to follow up real quickly on what you were saying though, Andrew, you're absolutely right. We solve the problem one person at a time. There is no other way to solve a people problem. We just happen to have about a 2 million person problem right in our industry. But the only way to solve it is one person at a time. That's the only way to solve any people problem.

Boyd Worsham [: 00:38:22

So we just have to keep chipping away at it. Guys like you and I get hopefully have that impact one person at a time. And ultimately, you know, we're doing the right thing to nccr. Just to tell you a little about it, you know, as I said, it's the national center for Construction Education research, founded in mid-90s 1996. And we are here to provide. We do no training ourselves. We provide curriculum, testing and assessment material and credentials to be used by training programs throughout the country. So there are several thousand.

Boyd Worsham [: 00:38:53

This craft training is not by any means debt in this country. A lot of people think it is. But between schools, contractors, correctional institutions, other non governmental agencies, all the other places that use our material, we are an accrediting body and they deliver the courses. And there are thousands of those organizations that do that every day using NCCR material. So we have about 300,000 active learners at any time in this country that are using NCCR material. So, you know, I want the nation to rest assured it's alive and well. Is it as big as we need it to be? No. Is our industry doing as much training and development as it should be doing? No.

Boyd Worsham [: 00:39:34

You know, because they're so busy trying to get the work done with less people than they should have. But all the tools are there to do it. It's happening. Well, we're affiliated with the University of Florida, so we're based in the Gainesville, Florida area, have training materials for 45 different crafts as well as superintendent training materials, foreman training materials and all the others. But just into crafts. It's about 45 different crafts, Andrew, ranging anywhere from carpentry, through instrumentation, through all the heavy industrial crafts. Welding is a huge one for us. Electrical is a huge one.

Boyd Worsham [: 00:40:06

And we have about 140 people in this building or scattered around the country working every day to update that curriculum and that training material and make sure it's relevant, make sure it's effective. And are doing a great job at that. I'm really proud of the people who come here every day trying to meet our vision of improving lives through construction education. Privileged to have the honor of running the organization and just really, really amazed by the talent that comes in this building every day to make a difference for others.

Andrew Brown [: 00:40:35

Yeah, I was going to ask you about. I can imagine the keeping up to date on all those training materials. Is most of it online? Is it a mix?

Boyd Worsham [: 00:40:43

Yeah, no, it's still textbooks. It's a mix. It's online textbook. A school still like textbooks. You know, because of the longevity of the material, we're seeing the transition away from textbooks gradually. You know, still a lot of people buy textbooks. We are developing new programs for delivering craft training that'll help to accelerate that transition away from textbooks. But you know, we are in schools all over the country, same carpentry programs I went to just.

Boyd Worsham [: 00:41:08

It's a lot more high tech now. Right, but you're right. Updating that curriculum. We have about 60 people in our product development team that are constantly updating curriculum, developing new programs and that's just a huge piece of our business is led by our chief learning officer and then developing our digital learning solutions which are for every craft we have as well as our pipeline industry and some other big pieces of business that many aren't even aware of in this country that are regulatory requirements around for training and education. So Andrew, you'd be shocked. We deliver over 4 million tests a year of just module tests across all these training programs across the country as well as our claim to fame at NCCR is the hands on performance component. You don't get a credential in any of those crafts without doing a knowledge test, basically a computer based test, as well as a performance profile or performance verification if you will, that's accomplished in the field either at the school or at a job site. Making sure you show what you know, then you get your credential.

Boyd Worsham [: 00:42:13

And that's what makes us more than just, you know, a curriculum company.

Andrew Brown [: 00:42:17

Once you have the credential, what kind of impact does that make on your career when you go and show that you have this certification?

Boyd Worsham [: 00:42:25

Obviously most companies tie pay scale to accomplishment of your credential either through an apprenticeship program or or through just a company ran training program. So all of them have their own scale, typically incremental raises every six months like the apprenticeship model. And quite frankly owners, project owners love having a credentialed workforce because they know they're getting more value with a standardized training Potential showing that, you know, these folks, the people on those projects know how to do the work in a standardized way versus every company having their own program. You'd be amazed at how many people stopped by this building that are cardholders, NCCR credential holders who come by just to see the building and come in and talk to us. I mean, I had 10 from a welding school last week that were headed to Orlando for a conference that stopped in and just wanted to see where it all happened. So there's a lot of value to it. There's a lot of honor to having an NCCR credential. We reap the benefits of that with our relationships with those students.

Andrew Brown [: 00:43:24

Yeah, and I had a chance to go down the rabbit hole. And for anybody who's interested in learning more about it, you can definitely go to the NCCER website.

Boyd Worsham [: 00:43:37

Now.

Andrew Brown [: 00:43:37

The Tools of the Trade Boy, this has been an amazing conversation. But before we leave the studio today, what is one of your special Tools of the trades advice you can give to young people entering the skill trades, especially those who hope to advance in a leadership role? What do they need?

Boyd Worsham [: 00:44:01

Andrew I think the best advice I could give is do not be afraid of opportunity. So often I think the opportunity comes knocking sometimes in the form of coveralls and hard work. Right. It doesn't always come knocking of somebody saying, let me give you a bunch more money. Normally it's hey, I need you to step up and I need you to do something more. Don't be afraid of that opportunity. Seize that opportunity. Step it up a bit and deliver on that opportunity to whoever offered it to you.

Boyd Worsham [: 00:44:29

I have never shied away from an opportunity when it came knocking, when somebody said, you want to be a carpenter foreman? Yes, I want to be a carpenter foreman. Is that a salary position? And I lose some of my overtime and may at the end of the day not pay me as much that year because I was. It was a change. That's fine. I want to climb the ladder and I want to do more for my organization because I know if I do more for them, they'll do more for me. And so my best advice is don't be afraid of opportunity. Seize it, do something with it, deliver on it, because it's a mutual thing. Somebody gave you the opportunity, you owe them something.

Boyd Worsham [: 00:45:03

And ultimately you will get what you've earned. Come to you will eventually happen. So that's the best advice I give them all. Lived it my whole life. I think it pays off well. I've seen too many times where somebody said, you know, I don't want to do that, can't do that. Well, what if it doesn't come knocking again? Right. For a long time.

Boyd Worsham [: 00:45:18

That would be my advice to any listeners you have who are coming into this industry or just generally going into the workforce.

Andrew Brown [: 00:45:25

And that's great advice. And it is about the opportunity. The opportunities are endless in the trade. It's what you put in and it's what you're going to get out. So put the hard work in. If you want to become the best carpenter, become the best carpenter. Soak up all the knowledge, get around good people who are successful. If you want to go the route of working for a large organization, work for a large organization.

Andrew Brown [: 00:45:46

You want to go off on your own, go off for your own. It depends what your aspirations are. It depends how far you want to take it. Boyd, where do people find more information about NCCER and social media out there?

Boyd Worsham [: 00:46:00

Well, nccr.org is our website and then we're on all the social media channels, so we have obviously a social media team. The person who leads our workforce development team here is a lady named Kathy Tyler. So don't be shy about reaching out to Kathy Tyler. If you're interested in starting a training program, you know, maybe looking at our material and switching to an NCCR program because of the credibility of the credentials, anything like that, but website's a great place to start. Reach out to me. I'm the only void at nccr. If I can help you in any way individual, organizationally, it doesn't matter. That's what we're here to do.

Boyd Worsham [: 00:46:33

We're a not for profit on a mission to improve lives through construction education. So, Andrew, we'll take any opportunity we can get to do that and we'll do something with that opportunity.

Andrew Brown [: 00:46:42

Boyd, thanks for being on the show today.

Boyd Worsham [: 00:46:44

My pleasure. Thank you for the opportunity and thank.

Andrew Brown [: 00:46:47

You to our listeners. If you're looking for a dynamic keynote speaker to elevate your next event, head over to andrewbrown.net and review some of my speaking topics. Trade awareness, career exploration, advocacy and addressing the trade shortage. Don't forget to subscribe to the podcast so you never miss another episode. We'll see you next time.

Andrew Brown [: 00:47:09

Thanks for listening to the lost art of the skilled trades. Visit us@AndrewBrown.net for more resources and tips. Join us next time for real stories and meaningful initiatives as we celebrate our men and women in the skilled trades and shape the future together.